Predictions for Episode 9

My predictions – at least the ones I feel have good backing:
-Short time jump if any.
-Miserable Kylo.
-Rey or Kylo will ask the other something/make a 'proposal'.
-Finn will help start a Stormtrooper rebellion in some way.
-Hux will betray Kylo/find out he and Rey worked together/stage a coup.
-The force bond will be discovered.
-Poe will have learned to be less hotheaded, and will be in a leadership position.
-Ben will help the Resistance in some way.
-Rose will become her own kind of Resistance hero.
-A happy ending (I'm optimistic)

Wild conjecture, but that deleted scene of Rose biting Hux's hand after he's taunted her about her homeworld? Bet it got cut for various reasons with that scene, but that him being that type of actual mustache twirling a**hole will be when he and Rey finally come face to face.

Also would bet good money he tries to push some kind of ‘blowing up Hosnian Prime’ scenario that’s part of the central conflict between him and Kylo, who objected but didn’t do anything to stop it.

The following is a totally crazy post.

I tried to type out and explain my reasoning for the next few things I'm about to put in this thread several times, and it just comes out as long-winded, crazy nonsense, lol. But I've had these images in my head for awhile (it goes with an expands more specifically on some of my predictions I made), so I'm just going to out with it because I have to share it with someone, somewhere even if I can't explain how I got from Point A to B.

1) Rey is going to use the hilt of Kylo's lightsaber to pierce through both of their hearts at the same time while they're pressed up against each other.
2) She's going to stand on Kylo's helmet so that their hearts are lined up so that she can effectively do that.
2) They're both going to be holding on to her double sided lightsaber (that she will make) with their other hands (it'll be parallel to the ground).
4) They're going to be on Jakku when this happens.
5) The image effect is going to be a cross (see throne room hip grab scene for foreshadowing of this).

(They won't die.)

Hope you all enjoy oddly specific decontextualized visual predictions, lol. But... yeah. I just can't get the above out of my head.

ETA: The only visual I can give a shorter reasoning for is that when I watched the TFA interrogation scene again and saw Kylo slam his helmet into that tray of ashes, a mirroring image of Rey dropping it similarly except onto sandy ground came to me almost unbidden and would.not.leave.my.brain.

@nickandnora I can really understand where you're coming from with such visual predictions. I can see her piercing through both of their hearts and creating "a cross." Sometimes I read or think about such interesting scenes for IX. But often I'm not sure SW will go there.

But hey most people didn't think that Rey will touch Kylo first and then will run to him

@nickandnora I like your visions... especially the helmet stool thing. I've been wondering about the helmet. He broke it and left it in the elevator. So where is it now? Can it be repaired and remade? I didn't think he'd ever wear it again because to me "breaking the helmet" was about breaking with his past with Snoke... to me that's the scene where he decided Snoke would have to go somehow. But a lot of people seem to want the mask back on him... I just don't know. (I'm thinking it's somewhere near the Vader mask (both broken) in his quarters. Oh, can anyone tell me from where he was supposed to have gotten the Vader mask?)

@Dar-ren19

Yeah, I agree that having the helmet back on is a step back for the character. I can see him sporting the hood again though.

I don't actually think *Ben* is going to wear the helmet again, if that makes sense.

However, I think the helmet and costume is going to be crucial for what Hux wants to accomplish. So I believe it's going to come back for Hux to manipulate.

On the previous page(ish) I delved into the idea that Hux is going to have someone else wear the costume and portray Kylo Ren. Because that's all he really needs. People who have read the novelization are saying that it's *obvious* that Hux's coup is coming, but that also he doesn't have the support of some of the old Imperialists. Likely (and ironically), Kylo Ren *would* have the support of those guys, or at least MORE support than Hux has. So what can Hux do? He hates Kylo with a firey passion and certainly wants to be rid of him. But he himself can't overtly take over without causing a huge rebellion against him within the FO. So he's going to remove Kylo, make someone who's willing to be part of the charade take over (my best guess is that he has the remaining KoR take turns becoming the persona), and be in complete control from the sidelines that way.

Basically, Hux is going to turn the image of Kylo Ren into Oz, The Great and Powerful and he's going to be the man behind the curtain.

Copying some stuff I said in the twitter thread over here so I can talk about it further:

...when I look at it from a foreshadowing and set-up perspective, there's 2-3 things that I think occur in this tale that they needed to hold back until IX that connect to Snoke.

The first is the reveal of Hux's ultimate weapon and what it consists of (I know that doesn't seem like it would in any way be connected to Snoke, but I think it is).

The second is what exactly happened when Ben was ten years old. Yeah, I know Snoke had his eye out for Ben since the womb, but I know (definitely, absolutely, for sure) that there was one major occurance that can probably be explained in a 2-3 minute flashback and it will reveal *everything*. And it's something that, I suspect, if I know my storytelling trajectory as well as I think I do, Rey finds out in the last 15 minutes of the final movie. It's the last piece of the puzzle and it's going to be huge.

Yeah, I'm basically putting my stakes in the ground that I know what happens in this story and I know why they've structured it the way they have, Snoke/Ben backstory included, lol. We'll see how well I can defend it with... over 600 days to go, sigh. Crying or Very sad But if I'm right, I'll be very happy I called it so early (and feel very psychic... or perhaps just smart, lol)

(Of course none of this means they had to take out the smaller sympathetic scenes of Ben, or creepy Snoke from the earlier films but I feel like I understand that they (J.J.? Rian? Both of them?) might have been like "NO LET'S SAVE IT AND BE AWESOME.")

So I guess I'll just jump into this. I'm going to address the first thing I bolded in one post, and address the other thing in a post farther down the line:

Hux's ultimate weapon... I've talked about this a lot in several posts before, but I think I've figured it out (almost) fully and also how it connects to Snoke. Basically, I think that they've saved a big Snoke reveal for IX ( even though he's dead) because it corresponds to what Hux is planning to do weaponry-wise AND with Kylo in the next film, and if they alluded too much to a key part of it earlier it would ruin the surprise and also force the audience to remember prior details when it's probably better to introduce all the info within the same film.

But can I just say, that the reason I have this idea at all is because I DO think the films have been foreshadowing Hux as the big bad of IX and Hux's Big Bad Weapon all along. We have all the pieces already. Hux is just going to put it together. The pieces are:

- His first weapon - draining the energy from a star to charge a weapon and fire it at a great distance across the galaxy
- His second "weapon" (really a tool) - tracking someone/something through lightspeed

Put those two things together: draining the energy from something and firing a weapon at something that's been tracked through lightspeed. That's what Hux is going to do in IX.

Except the body that Hux is going to drain is Kylo himself. He's going to drain him of his force energy to charge a weapon. And the thing that is going to be tracked through lightspeed and aimed at using this drained and charged energy is... Rey. He's going to weaponize Kylo to destroy Rey.

OK, let me back up. What does this have to do with Snoke? Basically, I think a lot of prior speculations about Snoke's powers were correct. Han said it in TFA: "he's using you for your powers." I think that was *literally* true. I know a lot of people abandoned the whole "Snoke has a device that's literally sucking the life/force from Ben" after TLJ, but I don't think that should be the case. Snoke has/had something that he was using on Ben all these years. It's why he was so arrogant that he couldn't be defeated, and that he knew his mind, his every thought. Snoke has been channeling Kylo's power, and he's been using it to give himself powers. What are the physical components to this? I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect two things: 1) his ring (a common theory among ardent fanboys... and I actually think they're correct about this), 2) something that's literally in Kylo's blood/body that connects to said ring (or whatever object it is).

Back to Hux: Hux is going to discover what Snoke was doing (if he hasn't already). He's going to realize he can use this mechanism to his advantage. A big speculation that a lot of us have is that Snoke's throne room has camera footage, as do the elevators. Depending on how extensive this footage is, Hux will know that Rey is Kylo's perfectly matched equal (based on what was said, based on what he sees go down in the throne room fight and afterwards, etc.).

So... instead of doing what Snoke did (draining Kylo and using his powers for himself) Hux is going to drain Kylo to channel his energy through a weapon (because weaponry is Hux's great love) and manipulate it so that said weapon will travel through lightspeed to wherever the object of equal but opposite energy (I'm explaining this totally wonky, but hopefully you get it) exists: Rey.

And the realization of what's being done to him is going to be an absolutely horrific one for Kylo/Ben: he's literally going to be used to destroy his other half.

*takes deep breath*

So I'm sure I have some details wrong, somewhere (heh, obviously). But I would bet my life on the fact that the essence of what I said is what's going to happen in IX. And it's why they saved that Snoke reveal for IX (the fact that he had a tool that was physically manipulating Kylo to some degree since he was ten years old), because it's directly applicable to what going to happen in IX.

You might ask, wouldn't this take forever to reveal in IX? I really don't think so. You need some vague allusions to Hux being up to no good and having made discoveries during Act I, and then close out Act I with him giving a big villain's speech about his plans which reveals what Snoke has been doing to Kylo all this time. Done.

Anyway, that's Part I of my opus I guess, lol.

@nickandnora do you think Kylo can lose his powers?

special_cases wrote:@nickandnora do you think Kylo can lose his powers?

@special_cases

I do think that the "resolution" to the above conundrum is that Ben loses his powers, yeah. As in, it's how he and Rey "get out of" that predicament. Rey likely loses her powers as well. I know that's not really a popular theory, but from where I'm sitting it's what I see as most likely. I personally think it's a good thing though; Kylo/Ben's powers have brought him nothing but grief.

But if you're asking whether or not Kylo is/was powerless *while* he was being sucked of all his Force energy by whatever mechanism Snoke had... hmmmm. Not sure. I'm going to defer to the Starkiller Base comparison here: as the star was being consumed, its light dimmed, but the light reinstated itself gradually when Starkiller's weapon was not charging. There's probably a comparison to force powers being drained to be made there.

And yes, I'm talking like everything I'm saying is a total given and 100% accurate, but that's for simplicity's sake, lol.

@nickandnora

I'm trying to keep an open mind about what might happen in IX so I'm not disappointed with whatever they do, as long as it's good, but I like your ideas! Especially certain parts of them, like the formative moment flashback, Hux trying to use Ben, and there being something deeper to Snoke using Ben's powers... that would fit with how ill and sick he looked, I think. His corpse-y look isn't styled in a typical Sith fashion. Maybe some other flavor of perversion of the Force going on there... Again, trying to keep an open mind! But this was fun reading

I definitely think there's something pivotal in those "missing years" of Ben's childhood that they're keeping so tightly under wraps that will be exposed. They'd want to have something like that which explains the essence of the abuse, since they keep removing content about the abuse from the other movies. If it involves some kind of perversion of the Force that could really work for a redemption storyline, to convey with mystical Force metaphor the extent of Snoke's abuse.

@nickandnora

wow, that theory is a lot to...digest.

Anything could happen in IX- and I have absolutely no idea where they will go with the story because VIII left open so many possibilities.

I personally (and that's just me) don't think some big reveal with Snoke or otherwise will happen in IX.
Maybe we will learn more about the circumstances from Ben's fall that will make the GA sympathize with him - but I don't think he was physically manipulated with some strange device or something. He was manipulated mentally, yes... but he needs to stay partly responsible for his actions and revealing Snoke did something to him physically would be an easy way to take away the guilt from Kylo.

Regarding Hux... well I don't know. The novelization made clear he will definitely cause trouble for Kylo/Ben and wants him out of the way.
But building a device to manipulate/suck force powers??? Where would he get the knowledge creating something like that? From Snoke? I don't think he would be keen on building something that could be dangerous for himself.
And why would Hux be so keen on destroying Rey? He doesn't care about her- the only reason he could be interested in her is to get to Kylo...but otherwise she is just a scavenger with force-powers.

Please don't get this the wrong way- and maybe you're right and I'm totally off the road with my predictions.

Night Huntress wrote:@nickandnora

wow, that theory is a lot to...digest.

Anything could happen in IX- and I have absolutely no idea where they will go with the story because VIII left open so many possibilities.

I personally (and that's just me) don't think some big reveal with Snoke or otherwise will happen in IX.
Maybe we will learn more about the circumstances from Ben's fall that will make the GA sympathize with him - but I don't think he was physically manipulated with some strange device or something. He was manipulated mentally, yes... but he needs to stay partly responsible for his actions and revealing Snoke did something to him physically would be an easy way to take away the guilt from Kylo.

Regarding Hux... well I don't know. The novelization made clear he will clearly cause trouble for Kylo/Ben and wants him out of the way.
But building a device to manipulate/suck force powers??? Where would he get the knowledge creating something like that? From Snoke? I don't think he would be keen on building something that could be dangerous for himself.
And why would Hux be so keen on destroying Rey? He doesn't care about her- the only reason he could be interested in her is to get to Kylo...but otherwise she is just a scavenger with force-powers.

Please don't get this the wrong way- and maybe you're right and I'm totally off the road with my predictions.

@Night Huntress

The bolded above,  I agree, there are so many ways the story can take shape, all ending in Ben's redemption, and Reylo being endgame.

That's what's fun about this predictions thread, there are so many different ideas of how IX could go. There are so many with creative ideas.

I've yet to pin down predictions, because I feel my thoughts are more of what I'd like to see happen. But reading everyone else's ideas keeps making me think and challenging what I'd like to see.

So what I'd like to see/ predict so far.

1) I'd like to see (although it's highly unlikely) a flashback of Leia sitting writing a letter (from the back only, and see her hands writing showing off those lovely rings) to Ben, maybe leaving a legacy, perhaps pouring her feelings out, forgiving him of Han's death, acknowledging that they weren't there for him thus allowing Snoke in, this which would give us Leia's perspective. I feel IX was going to show us Kylo's redemption from a mother's eyes. She would write the letter because she knows she's ill, from the effects of space radiation from being out in open space.

2) I'd like to see Kylo and Rey joining forces or having to work together, on some independent quest, for example I may as well throw it in here,  like looking for the Kazerath Device (which is probably huge red herring  from Poe Comics, but I love the idea of a device that can bring balance but needs both dark and light users to use it.) whatever they do, I'd just like them to have screen  time together, and being on a journey/adventure enables them to do that, plus it helps in breaking down their barriers.

3) They fly the MF together (if this doesn't happen, I think I will howl, as its a wasted opportunity) because the MF is so iconic, that Kylo needs to pilot it, this will enable him to have to have those dice for real, I'd like to see him hold them again.

4) However the story unfolds, and I think in the beginning we may see Kylo looking like a confident SL, striding around the troops on his ship, to make us the audience think he's happy being the big bad,  but it's only a mask for how he really feels which is broken inside, and then we the audience will see he's not really the big bad, he won't be able to commit to the atrocities that Hux wants him to do. Hux knows this and is plotting his coup, Hux is both good at biding his time, but he's equally an opportunist, so it will be interesting what the trigger point between the two will be.
The GA need to get on the side of Kylo,  he was left in a  slightly better position in TLJ than at the end of TFA, and as someone who was completely won over by Kylo redemptive arc in TLJ  this needs to continue hopefully early on in IX, to allow those in GA to adjust and hopefully accept his ultimate redemption.


I've realised that as I've written this, I've not much interest in what happens to everyone else

I've got to think about them a bit more, I've realised too I'm not bothered by the whole Jedi thing. I really don't want Rey to be fixated on becoming a new Jedi. Kylo was right to a degree  in the throne room when he said let it all die, the Sith, the Jedi etc. I think there has to be a new order of some sorts, the Sith were extreme, but then the Jedi were their opposite extremes, and look where that led. If there is to be a Jedi, then I hope its a totally new concept. Allowing for a balance, allowing for emotion, allowing those force sensitive to be trained if they want and not separated from their parents. I think it's something that both Rey and Kylo will be, they will both be needed for the new fresh start.

Finn was a favourite character in TFA, I love him with Rose, and he needs to start showing the love back, which actually we got a glimpse of at the end of TLJ. Having read Finn's  story in Before the Awakening, it gave me more of an insight that there are individuals behind the stormtrooper's mask, it's a shame they cut the scene with Finn (was it Tom Hardy' storm trooper? ) I want to see more of a human element within the Fo.

Poe, well I don't know about Poe, I haven't made my mind up.

@Night Huntress
No worries. I ain't mad.

Maybe we will learn more about the circumstances from Ben's fall that will make the GA sympathize with him - but I don't think he was physically manipulated with some strange device or something. He was manipulated mentally, yes... but he needs to stay partly responsible for his actions and revealing Snoke did something to him physically would be an easy way to take away the guilt from Kylo.

I think he will be partly responsible still, but at the same time having a physical component divides this "fall" to the darkness that he experienced into half actual, and half metaphorical. We've been saying anyway that Snoke planted the seed of darkness in him, and Kylo let it fester (with the help of his family who, one by one, failed him); what I'm saying is that he literally planted a seed as well. And do you know why this works? The kids watching will understand that something was DONE to him as a kid, so it's OK to forgive him, while the (intelligent) adults will see that it's a parable and think it's pretty clever (and also that it's OK to forgive him).

Regarding Hux... well I don't know. The novelization made clear he will definitely cause trouble for Kylo/Ben and wants him out of the way.
But building a device to manipulate/suck force powers??? Where would he get the knowledge creating something like that? From Snoke? I don't think he would be keen on building something that could be dangerous for himself.

What I tried to make clear in my other post is that the mechanism/tool is literally right in front of Hux's nose and about to fall into his lap. Snoke has been using this force device for 20 years. His throne room likely has video footage that will fill in the blanks. Everything Hux needs is RIGHT THERE because the story has placed it there, he's just going to choose to use it differently than Snoke did.

I also want to say that a device that sucks the living force out of someone (and then weaponizes said force) is actually canon. It was called The Dark Reaper which worked in conjunction with The Force Harvester. This item was split into many pieces and hidden, if I understand it correctly. I'm not saying that this is THE ITEM, but all I know is that I searched for this idea for all of five minutes and found a theoretical device that fits my theory, so who knows what else is out there in force lore. And I was going to talk about this in my other post, but the story even has a character who we KNOW obtains impossible items at a person's bequest (Maz), so she probably got retrieved this artifact for Snoke a long time ago. All the pieces are literally there in the story to make this happen.

Furthermore, I don't think said tool would be dangerous for Hux to work with, because he's not a force being. Snoke wasn't afraid of using it, whatever it is.

Oh, and one last thing: we've been told that Hux creates (or delegates the creation of) impossible weapons. Tracking them through lightspeed was impossible and yet "they've done it." We're expected to suspend our disbelief that Hux could do those other things, I don't find this very far-fetched when the films would have effectively been showing us the pieces of what he's going to do all along.

And why would Hux be so keen on destroying Rey? He doesn't care about her- the only reason he could be interested in her is to get to Kylo...but otherwise she is just a scavenger with force-powers.

I'll be more specific. Hux wants to destroy the Resistance just as much as Kylo, but for completely different reasons. They've eluded him this whole time. I suspect at the beginning of IX, we're going to see that the Resistance has built some traction once more (mainly because I think Kylo will have been doing jack all to find them/stop them since the previous film, much to Hux's chagrin). They're a symbol of hope and Hux will certainly want to snuff it out. In addition, it's quite possible (probable even) that Rey will have been manipulated into becoming the actual face of the Resistance in Luke's stead ("Look, we have the Last Jedi! Hope lives!") If Hux knows that Kylo and Rey are essentially "tied on a string" to each other, then PERFECT for him. Weaponize one of them to blow up the other one without Hux even having to track where Rey/Resistance are and effectively destroy the whole rebellion in one swoop. Plus, it's perfect revenge on Kylo and manipulation of his weaknesses, which disgust Hux as it is.

@Let The Past Die

haha most of my random thoughts for IX are based around Ben and Rey too. I want lots of screen time for this two, sharing more scenes in whatever capacity.

1) I'd like to see (although it's highly unlikely) a flashback of Leia sitting writing a letter (from the back only, and see her hands writing showing off those lovely rings) to Ben, maybe leaving a legacy, perhaps pouring her feelings out, forgiving him of Han's death, acknowledging that they weren't there for him thus allowing Snoke in, this which would give us Leia's perspective. I feel IX was going to show us Kylo's redemption from a mother's eyes. She would write the letter because she knows she's ill, from the effects of space radiation from being out in open space.

I have something similar to this going round in my head too. I can see the Leia dilemma being dealt with in a very understated way in a short scene but still have consequential effects throughout IX.

One thing I'm sure of for Ep 9, will be a confrontation between Rey and Kylo regarding Leia after her funeral. Much like a repeat of the 3rd Forcebond where Rey says "He loved you, he gave a damn about you."

But this time she says it gently as if tired and resigned.

"She loved you."

To which Kylo would reply "I know."

nickandnora wrote:@Night Huntress
No worries. I ain't mad.

Maybe we will learn more about the circumstances from Ben's fall that will make the GA sympathize with him - but I don't think he was physically manipulated with some strange device or something. He was manipulated mentally, yes... but he needs to stay partly responsible for his actions and revealing Snoke did something to him physically would be an easy way to take away the guilt from Kylo.

I think he will be partly responsible still, but at the same time having a physical component divides this "fall" to the darkness that he experienced into half actual, and half metaphorical. We've been saying anyway that Snoke planted the seed of darkness in him, and Kylo let it fester (with the help of his family who, one by one, failed him); what I'm saying is that he literally planted a seed as well. And do you know why this works? The kids watching will understand that something was DONE to him as a kid, so it's OK to forgive him, while the (intelligent) adults will see that it's a parable and think it's pretty clever (and also that it's OK to forgive him).

@nickandnora

I could see them having some kind of symbolic thing to represent abuse, something clear and specific which they can do because this story has Force magic - not to compromise his moral choice any more than long-term abuse does, really, but to symbolize it, so it's both a psychological state and a Force magical thing. I think something like that would work to explain why Rey was born at the particular moment she was and it seems like it would work with the fairy tale we've got here, of a stolen child put under a curse?

It would also explain why in this specific case there needed to be someone like Rey to come along. I don't think "light rises" and the Cosmic force comes along to create a perfect equal to every person using the dark side... if there's something unnatural about what was done to Ben, though, that could make sense??

I'm not saying they can't do something else! But the basic concept of there being something unnatural magically that fits with/represents the abuse is something I like personally.

twilekempire wrote:

nickandnora wrote:@Night Huntress
No worries. I ain't mad.

Maybe we will learn more about the circumstances from Ben's fall that will make the GA sympathize with him - but I don't think he was physically manipulated with some strange device or something. He was manipulated mentally, yes... but he needs to stay partly responsible for his actions and revealing Snoke did something to him physically would be an easy way to take away the guilt from Kylo.

I think he will be partly responsible still, but at the same time having a physical component divides this "fall" to the darkness that he experienced into half actual, and half metaphorical. We've been saying anyway that Snoke planted the seed of darkness in him, and Kylo let it fester (with the help of his family who, one by one, failed him); what I'm saying is that he literally planted a seed as well. And do you know why this works? The kids watching will understand that something was DONE to him as a kid, so it's OK to forgive him, while the (intelligent) adults will see that it's a parable and think it's pretty clever (and also that it's OK to forgive him).

@nickandnora

I could see them having some kind of symbolic thing to represent abuse, something clear and specific which they can do because this story has Force magic - not to compromise his moral choice any more than long-term abuse does, really, but to symbolize it, so it's both a psychological state and a Force magical thing. I think something like that would work to explain why Rey was born at the particular moment she was and it seems like it would work with the fairy tale we've got here, of a stolen child put under a curse?

It would also explain why in this specific case there needed to be someone like Rey to come along. I don't think "light rises" and the Cosmic force comes along to create a perfect equal to every person using the dark side... if there's something unnatural about what was done to Ben, though, that could make sense??

I'm not saying they can't do something else! But the basic concept of there being something unnatural magically that fits with/represents the abuse is something I like personally.

@twilekempire

I love this theory! I think it fits especially well if Ben was supposed to be "the perfect focal point of light and dark", and something happened (via Snoke's manipulation) that pushed Ben out of balance and more into the dark side. The Force then sort of self-corrects via Rey, then.

@nickandnora I enjoyed reading your theory! Quite creative and interesting to think about. No idea how it would actually work since I'm no way creative like JJ, but cool nonetheless.

I was thinking that I think that Rey and Kylo Ren are going to have to have another lightsaber fight - mainly because, this is Star Wars, and we have to have lightsaber fights. Currently there are only two people in the Star Wars universe that we know of that wield the lightsaber. Now, I don't think they'll be able to kill one another. Either it will end a la TFA and the force literally rips them apart again, or maybe one will give up and then the other won't be able to kill the other. Anyone else think they'll have to fight again?

twilekempire wrote:

nickandnora wrote:@Night Huntress
No worries. I ain't mad.

Maybe we will learn more about the circumstances from Ben's fall that will make the GA sympathize with him - but I don't think he was physically manipulated with some strange device or something. He was manipulated mentally, yes... but he needs to stay partly responsible for his actions and revealing Snoke did something to him physically would be an easy way to take away the guilt from Kylo.

I think he will be partly responsible still, but at the same time having a physical component divides this "fall" to the darkness that he experienced into half actual, and half metaphorical. We've been saying anyway that Snoke planted the seed of darkness in him, and Kylo let it fester (with the help of his family who, one by one, failed him); what I'm saying is that he literally planted a seed as well. And do you know why this works? The kids watching will understand that something was DONE to him as a kid, so it's OK to forgive him, while the (intelligent) adults will see that it's a parable and think it's pretty clever (and also that it's OK to forgive him).

@nickandnora

I could see them having some kind of symbolic thing to represent abuse, something clear and specific which they can do because this story has Force magic - not to compromise his moral choice any more than long-term abuse does, really, but to symbolize it, so it's both a psychological state and a Force magical thing. I think something like that would work to explain why Rey was born at the particular moment she was and it seems like it would work with the fairy tale we've got here, of a stolen child put under a curse?

It would also explain why in this specific case there needed to be someone like Rey to come along. I don't think "light rises" and the Cosmic force comes along to create a perfect equal to every person using the dark side... if there's something unnatural about what was done to Ben, though, that could make sense??

I'm not saying they can't do something else! But the basic concept of there being something unnatural magically that fits with/represents the abuse is something I like personally.

@twilekempire

Right?! Totally!

OK, this was going to be another post, but since you've brought it up... yeah, there was something more specific about Rey's creation. Some of us here have noted the Adam and Eve allusions in their story, and I kind of combined that plus every Disney fairytale trope that exists to come up with the idea... that Rey was *literally* created from whatever piece of light and goodness that was excised from Ben that day.

***As an side, I'm almost envisioning a Snow White scenario here (if I had to compare it to one singular Disney movie) where young Ben is tempted with the poisoned apple (dark force... thing), so to speak. And, in that situation, how does the villain get Snow White to eat the apple? She's told it's magical and it will make whatever she wishes come true. So, what if, before Ben consumed this... whatever it was... in his last moment of purity and innocence he actually wished for something outloud. Of course, you know what I think 10 year old innocent Ben would wish for? "When I grow up I want to be like daddy and marry a beautiful princess like mommy." Lo and behold... the Force creates Rey, just like God created Eve from Adam's rib.***

There's another component to this that's SUPER interesting (and has a ton of evidence in the subtext that we're already pointed out). Rey has always been looking for her family, but more specifically it seems like she's always been looking for her father. What if that's kind of a basic misinterpretation of her own feelings? What if, on a very primal level, she's really just been looking for the male energy from whose marrow she is derived? And that's not really her birth father... that's Ben. It was in our interpretation of the cave scene, right?! "Who are my parents?" Two figures (her and him) blend together to form one figure who looks like him, and then reveals... her. She's a part of him, and he's a part of her. Two halves of a whole. You guys, you don't even understand how much I would LOVE this.

(I don't have to explain how the map to Luke Skywalker with the piece missing from it, and how Rey has the piece and Kylo has the whole is just one big giant symbol for this scenario, right? )

(And AND it would explain why LF story group keep saying that she's getting her powers from Kylo, which is only kind of clear in the movie, and why they tap into each other so quickly, why they have the bond, why she fights like him, why she dreams of him in TFA, etc. etc.)

***Snow White wish scenario is really, really specific and I can't say for sure that's what happens, but we could totally argue that Ben/Kylo's "look" is kind of reminiscent of Snow White's, right? Skin, hair, lips... lol.

I was looking at this tumblr post http://speedofsound888.tumblr.com/post/171979889418/iconic-i-love-you-scenes-in-star-wars-in

and realised every trilogy has had an iconic "I love you" scene just before one/both characters are about to meet their end (presumably). I feel this is what will happen with Reylo too!

Please let Kylo laugh at least once!!!

https://twitter.com/_XianDe_/status/972313007702253568

Edit: Better image


https://reylo-awakens.tumblr.com/

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

twilekempire wrote:

nickandnora wrote:@Night Huntress
No worries. I ain't mad.

Maybe we will learn more about the circumstances from Ben's fall that will make the GA sympathize with him - but I don't think he was physically manipulated with some strange device or something. He was manipulated mentally, yes... but he needs to stay partly responsible for his actions and revealing Snoke did something to him physically would be an easy way to take away the guilt from Kylo.

I think he will be partly responsible still, but at the same time having a physical component divides this "fall" to the darkness that he experienced into half actual, and half metaphorical. We've been saying anyway that Snoke planted the seed of darkness in him, and Kylo let it fester (with the help of his family who, one by one, failed him); what I'm saying is that he literally planted a seed as well. And do you know why this works? The kids watching will understand that something was DONE to him as a kid, so it's OK to forgive him, while the (intelligent) adults will see that it's a parable and think it's pretty clever (and also that it's OK to forgive him).

@nickandnora

I could see them having some kind of symbolic thing to represent abuse, something clear and specific which they can do because this story has Force magic - not to compromise his moral choice any more than long-term abuse does, really, but to symbolize it, so it's both a psychological state and a Force magical thing. I think something like that would work to explain why Rey was born at the particular moment she was and it seems like it would work with the fairy tale we've got here, of a stolen child put under a curse?

It would also explain why in this specific case there needed to be someone like Rey to come along. I don't think "light rises" and the Cosmic force comes along to create a perfect equal to every person using the dark side... if there's something unnatural about what was done to Ben, though, that could make sense??

I'm not saying they can't do something else! But the basic concept of there being something unnatural magically that fits with/represents the abuse is something I like personally.

@twilekempire

I love this theory!  I think it fits especially well if Ben was supposed to be "the perfect focal point of light and dark", and something happened (via Snoke's manipulation) that pushed Ben out of balance and more into the dark side. The Force then sort of self-corrects via Rey, then.

@ISeeAnIsland

Not sure of the exact quote, but Daisy did mention that she is really just a cog in the machine? I will see if I can track down this to source.

Two minutes pass....Thank Google! :-p

Cog in the machine

Rei of Sunshine wrote:A Stormtrooper revolt could still be executed perfectly for Finn. I mean we already got hints of the idea, and Phasma is gone now too. I hope.

I mean, not only is Finn admirable for being able to escape FO conditioning, he also ended Phasma, whom I guess is a feared figure in the FO amongst the Troopers.

As much as his story sorta fell short at the end of TFA, and didn't grab the spotlight in TLJ, I think Finn will make an awesome comeback for Wp 9.

Poe's character already seems like he's reached the end of his arc after having allegedly learned his lesson. And if Leia dies, he becomes general which is his character achievement. He'll surely ve delegated to the backseat for the more interesting and plot driven Force plot.

I badly want Finn to lead a rebellion, because honestly, I always feel bad for red shirt deaths in SW. I feel like the idea of Trooper casualties is taken for granted, especially the fact that they are just humans doing their jobs. They probably never though of the Empire and FO as evil. They just wanted to work and serve!

Finn being able to open their eyes and lead them to a better purpose will amp up the humanity of SW. John is already playing a leadership role in Pacific Rim, he already has the flair for it.

@Rei of Sunshine

Moving my reply over here, hope that's okay! I wanted to say that I really love your vision of how this could work!

In particular, if Phasma was in more direct control of the Stormtroopers and she's gone and Hux's eyes are on the Supreme Leader spot, that could allow some "laxness" to come into the control of the Stormtroopers that Finn might take advantage of. I hope they pull something great off for him!

IMO Stormtrooper rebellion is one way this triology could really distinguish itself from the first. They could have a conclusion that brings out that sympathy you talk about having for the red shirts. And conveys how victory can be more transformative when you liberate/convert rather than simply kill.

It is a rumor on Tumblr that a "trustworthy" source has leaked spoilers: that the time span will be 2 years and that there will be a "Hamlet" feeling. And we know Hamlet is a tragedy, right?
It seems to be much ado about nothing.

 

I was not liking the long time span because
a: No force bond sessions in 2 years?
b: And if there was some, how should the audience see them? As flashbacks?
c: Kylo Ren successfully Supreme Leader i 2 years? As shaken as he was in the end scene?
d: The Resistance rebuilding 2 years and we see it as flashbacks too? Much flashbacks here, me thinks.
e: Leia alive in 2 years, or dead before IX starts? Flashback to funeral... enough flashbacks....
f: Hux let Kylo establish himself as leader i 2 years? So out of his character where TLJ ends.
g: How has our heroes and villains developed in 2 years? How do we keep up with the changes?

Remember the time span between ESB and ROTJ? In canon, in the movie ROTJ, we got no explanation of what happened in the time between. The characters like Leia was just picking up, but Luke much more powerful and a new-built lightsaber. I don't think Disney can pull that one off in 2019. Rose and Finn has avoided talking about that kiss in 2 years? Or they are married with a child? Rey appearing with a lightsaber or saberstaff that she as built offscreen? The Resistance with a new fleet that just some rich person donated to?