ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 3

AnneNeville wrote:

Sylvia Snow wrote:@AnneNeville Could Leia and Kylo shares some familial Force Bond? Since she is his mother and Kylo inherit the Force from her. Compare to Han, I would think Kylo is more likely have a closer relationship with Leia via the Force

@Sylvia Snow

I don't know about a force bond, but it seems to be implied that their emotions are connected somehow by the force.

@AnneNeville Well, except for Revan and Bastila, Force Bond usually more likely between Family members or Master and padawan so I think that what happen between Leia and Kylo that they have a Bond

I put this in another board, but (not sure if I'm allowed to post the link) for anyone who loves analyzing or wants screencaps - a website called screencapped.org has put up screencaps of TFA today. They're pretty good too.

Moving images would be better, but for comparison:





The last is an overlay to show how precisely framed these shots were.

Yeah, that's the same reaction that mother and son have. Some bond is going on here or they are just very much alike when expressing grief.

Sylvia Snow wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:

Sylvia Snow wrote:@AnneNeville Could Leia and Kylo shares some familial Force Bond? Since she is his mother and Kylo inherit the Force from her. Compare to Han, I would think Kylo is more likely have a closer relationship with Leia via the Force

@Sylvia Snow

I don't know about a force bond, but it seems to be implied that their emotions are connected somehow by the force.

@AnneNeville Well, except for Revan and Bastila, Force Bond usually more likely between Family members or Master and padawan so I think that what happen between Leia and Kylo that they have a Bond

@Sylvia Snow
Exactly, Revan and Bastila were exception, they formed Force Bond when she healed him using the force, they both were very strong in the force and that's why their force bond was that strong as well. Stronger individuals=stronger bond, Maybe Leia isn't that strong so neither is the force bond, but that moment was probably very disturbing for Kylo, enough for her to feel it. Reylo force bond will grow stronger as she becomes stronger and as time passes by. And in case you were wondering, it's possible to have Force bond with two persons, Revan had it with Bastila and with his apprentice
Edit: Sorry guys, it wasn't Revan who had force bond with two people, it was another character

AnneNeville wrote:Moving images would be better, but for comparison:





The last is an overlay to show how precisely framed these shots were.

@AnneNeville

Nice catch!

Also, FB is not needed per se for Force sensitives to feel other people's pain. See Obi-wan in ANH or Yoda in RotS.

Will Rey's love be strong enough to love this face:



It's a pretty nasty scar which has potential for an epic love story. Many wouldn't put up with it, will Rey? What do you think? She gave him this face, no one's gonna want him now. he's hers or no one's ever.

vaderito wrote:Will Rey's love be strong enough to love this face:



It's a pretty nasty scar which has potential for an epic love story. Many wouldn't put up with it, will Rey? What do you think? She gave him this face, no one's gonna want him now. he's hers or no one's ever.

@vaderito

Well Belle fell in love with the Beast when he was a beast.

Just saying!!

@Rogue Rey But how evil was the Beast? Kylo killed Han in front of Rey (not that he knew she was watching but, still, she saw his complete moral collapse, his darkest moment). Also, Belle didn't give the Prince a beast face but Rey gave Kylo a monstah face. So there are differences. She doesn't want to be attracted to him so she disfigured him.

vaderito wrote:@Rogue Rey But how evil was the Beast? Kylo killed Han in front of Rey (not that he knew she was watching but, still, she saw his complete moral collapse, his darkest moment). Also, Belle didn't give the Prince a beast face but Rey gave Kylo a monstah face. So there are differences. She doesn't want to be attracted to him so she disfigured him.

@vaderito

I don't know about stories or that which have the one character disfiguring the other but still finding love with the one they have disfigured.

But there are stories/films about disfigured characters finding love because the other person sees beyond them physically - such as The Enchanted Cottage.

But as you say Rey has bore witness to the lowest thing Kylo has even done with killing Han and then disfigured him to stop her feelings from him because if she sees him as 'ugly' or disfigured then she thinks that'll work and her feelings will just vanish or stop (but they won't) because her connection with Kylo was deeper than just the physical.

It occurs to me that a lot of the pushback that the Kylo-Rey dynamic gets is actually due to people's discomfort with TFA having a female protagonist. Acts between the protagonist and antagonist that would be interpreted neutrally in a male-male, typical antagonist/protagonist film suddenly take on a different meaning to people, and they react violently. They want to see one kind of story, the safe kind of story that wraps Rey in cotton wool, rather than the kind of story that Raymond would have.

If Kylo had enquired "What boy?" people would think that the antagonist had perhaps had a vision of the person prophosied to take him down, If Raymond were pursued through Takodana woods, he would be bravely fighting back against a bad guy, not terrified and retreating. It wouldn't be "creepy," it would be taken as a matter of course. Of course the villain is going to chase down the hero! That's what villains do!

If Raymond had been mind probed and turned the tables on Kylo, people would be cheering about him coming into his own with the Force. Instead, there are cries of "Mary Sue" and a stubborn insistence that Rey was violated and mind-raped. Her victory over Kylo is brushed over, and all the things that the filmmakers did to make that scene as "un creepy" as possible (Kylo kneeling, removing all the unnecessary touching that was in the novel) are forgotten.

Raymond mind probed in an interrogation chair would be called torture, but not rape. And I really do think that the audience would be more focused on how Raymond beat the bad guy, rather than clinging to the fact that the bad guy did something bad to him.

There also would probably have been more blood, like with Poe. The tree-throw wouldn't be "abuse," just a bad guy doing a bad thing.

I feel like the insistence that Kylo is abusive and creepy towards Rey misses the point completely. The villain is bad to the hero, that's what villains do. No one would question this dynamic if the hero were Raymond. They would accept it.

But some people cannot accept Rey as a hero. They cannot accept that she could possibly be presented as Kylo Ren's equal, as a person capable of defending herself. She's a girl, after all, and such a sweet little thing (not someone who beats ruffians with a stick and takes them down en masse, not someone who taught herself how to fly and fix things and survive all alone).

If Rey were a man, she'd practically be as epic as Indiana Jones. Instead, she's a victim and a Mary Sue.

And this makes me sad, because I want Rey-the-hero, and I guess a lot of people don't want to accept that if a woman is going to be the hero/protagonist, she's actually going to have to face down bad guys and pay the price for that.

vaderito wrote:Will Rey's love be strong enough to love this face:



It's a pretty nasty scar which has potential for an epic love story. Many wouldn't put up with it, will Rey? What do you think? She gave him this face, no one's gonna want him now. he's hers or no one's ever.

@vaderito

Hey, I'll be happy to take him if she does not want him...!
 



Nice screen grab there, by the way.
It has been brightened up a bit to better show his wounds. That moment is fairly dimly lit in the actual film.

Quite a vicious slash there.
From his shoulder, up the side of his neck, across the cheek, and between the eyes.
Yikes.
I would imagine we will see some healing , but he will always carry a clear mark on his face from this point on.
Really, really hoping Kylo does not decide to use that as an excuse to hide behind a mask again....
Please, no....

I think the scar will look like the one bellow, but across the face. Not bad, I don't think so.

AnneNeville wrote:It occurs to me that a lot of the pushback that the Kylo-Rey dynamic gets is actually due to people's discomfort with TFA having a female protagonist. Acts between the protagonist and antagonist that would be interpreted neutrally in a male-male, typical antagonist/protagonist film suddenly take on a different meaning to people, and they react violently. They want to see one kind of story, the safe kind of story that wraps Rey in cotton wool, rather than the kind of story that Raymond would have.

If Kylo had enquired "What boy?" people would think that the antagonist had perhaps had a vision of the person prophosied to take him down, If Raymond were pursued through Takodana woods, he would be bravely fighting back against a bad guy, not terrified and retreating. It wouldn't be "creepy," it would be taken as a matter of course. Of course the villain is going to chase down the hero! That's what villains do!

If Raymond had been mind probed and turned the tables on Kylo, people would be cheering about him coming into his own with the Force. Instead, there are cries of "Mary Sue" and a stubborn insistence that Rey was violated and mind-raped. Her victory over Kylo is brushed over, and all the things that the filmmakers did to make that scene as "un creepy" as possible (Kylo kneeling, removing all the unnecessary touching that was in the novel) are forgotten.

Raymond mind probed in an interrogation chair would be called torture, but not rape. And I really do think that the audience would be more focused on how Raymond beat the bad guy, rather than clinging to the fact that the bad guy did something bad to him.

There also would probably have been more blood, like with Poe. The tree-throw wouldn't be "abuse," just a bad guy doing a bad thing.

I feel like the insistence that Kylo is abusive and creepy towards Rey misses the point completely. The villain is bad to the hero, that's what villains do. No one would question this dynamic if the hero were Raymond. They would accept it.

But some people cannot accept Rey as a hero. They cannot accept that she could possibly be presented as Kylo Ren's equal, as a person capable of defending herself. She's a girl, after all, and such a sweet little thing (not someone who beats ruffians with a stick and takes them down en masse, not someone who taught herself how to fly and fix things and survive all alone).

If Rey were a man, she'd practically be as epic as Indiana Jones. Instead, she's a victim and a Mary Sue.

And this makes me sad, because I want Rey-the-hero, and I guess a lot of people don't want to accept that if a woman is going to be the hero/protagonist, she's actually going to have to face down bad guys and pay the price for that.

@AnneNeville

And meanwhile you also have the ones who see Kylo as Kelly, the whiny cheerleader - no offense to cheerleaders, I am talking clichés here - and not the team captain a.k.a. Master of the Knights of Ren.

EDIT: I fully agree with you. Maybe they should have shown her more masculine to fit with the cliché of a woman can only be considered as a tough cookie if she looks like a quarterback * sarcasm * And a guy can only be considered man enough if he does not show his emotions * rolls eyes *. Wonder how the people who have an issue with Kylo and Rey fighting against each other as equals saw the fight between Furiosa and Max.

It doens't matter what we think (I think it's sexy Yin Yang bada** scar) but what she thinks. maybe she mocks him and shames him when they meet again?

Kylo Ren's 8-Pack wrote:

vaderito wrote:Will Rey's love be strong enough to love this face:



It's a pretty nasty scar which has potential for an epic love story. Many wouldn't put up with it, will Rey? What do you think? She gave him this face, no one's gonna want him now. he's hers or no one's ever.

@vaderito

Hey, I'll be happy to take him if she does not want him...!
 



Nice screen grab there, by the way.
It has been brightened up a bit to better show his wounds. That moment is fairly dimly lit in the actual film.

Quite a vicious slash there.
From his shoulder, up the side of his neck, across the cheek, and between the eyes.
Yikes.
I would imagine we will see some healing , but he will always carry a clear mark on his face from this point on.
Really, really hoping Kylo does not decide to use that as an excuse to hide behind a mask again....
Please, no....

@Kylo Ren's 8-Pack

I think we'll learn a lot when we see Kylo's face again. Depending on how they treat the scar and injuries, we should get an idea whether he's on the path to redemption. I assume they will leave a scar (though wouldn't the existence of bacta tanks mean he wouldn't necessarily have to have one). If they go mechanical-Kylo, then redemption becomes less likely.

I'm thinking the scar will be there, but it will be much more minimal than we expect. They will want Adam's face to be able to move so he can remain expressive. (Or, I would think, he at least would want that tool to work with. He's already had one movie covered head to toe for multiple scenes.)

The scar will be enough for Rey to see what she has done to Kylo (marked him as a monster) but not enough to make him monsterous or inhibit acting.

vaderito wrote:It doens't matter what we think (I think it's sexy Yin Yang bada** scar) but what she thinks. maybe she mocks him and shames him when they meet again?

@vaderito

We she looks at him from the other side, she seems guilty. I don't think she will shame him

AnneNeville wrote:It occurs to me that a lot of the pushback that the Kylo-Rey dynamic gets is actually due to people's discomfort with TFA having a female protagonist. Acts between the protagonist and antagonist that would be interpreted neutrally in a male-male, typical antagonist/protagonist film suddenly take on a different meaning to people, and they react violently. They want to see one kind of story, the safe kind of story that wraps Rey in cotton wool, rather than the kind of story that Raymond would have.

If Kylo had enquired "What boy?" people would think that the antagonist had perhaps had a vision of the person prophosied to take him down, If Raymond were pursued through Takodana woods, he would be bravely fighting back against a bad guy, not terrified and retreating. It wouldn't be "creepy," it would be taken as a matter of course. Of course the villain is going to chase down the hero! That's what villains do!

If Raymond had been mind probed and turned the tables on Kylo, people would be cheering about him coming into his own with the Force. Instead, there are cries of "Mary Sue" and a stubborn insistence that Rey was violated and mind-raped. Her victory over Kylo is brushed over, and all the things that the filmmakers did to make that scene as "un creepy" as possible (Kylo kneeling, removing all the unnecessary touching that was in the novel) are forgotten.

Raymond mind probed in an interrogation chair would be called torture, but not rape. And I really do think that the audience would be more focused on how Raymond beat the bad guy, rather than clinging to the fact that the bad guy did something bad to him.

There also would probably have been more blood, like with Poe. The tree-throw wouldn't be "abuse," just a bad guy doing a bad thing.

I feel like the insistence that Kylo is abusive and creepy towards Rey misses the point completely. The villain is bad to the hero, that's what villains do. No one would question this dynamic if the hero were Raymond. They would accept it.

But some people cannot accept Rey as a hero. They cannot accept that she could possibly be presented as Kylo Ren's equal, as a person capable of defending herself. She's a girl, after all, and such a sweet little thing (not someone who beats ruffians with a stick and takes them down en masse, not someone who taught herself how to fly and fix things and survive all alone).

If Rey were a man, she'd practically be as epic as Indiana Jones. Instead, she's a victim and a Mary Sue.

And this makes me sad, because I want Rey-the-hero, and I guess a lot of people don't want to accept that if a woman is going to be the hero/protagonist, she's actually going to have to face down bad guys and pay the price for that.

@AnneNeville
These lines would have taken the homo-erotic cake right under Poe's nose if Raymond was a thing LOL:

"You know I can take whatever I want."
"Don't be afraid, I feel it too."
"You need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the Force!"

You pretty much summed up my modern fairytale dynamic paper from a different perspective.

None of Kylo's interactions with Rey make sense unless you're willing to accept that he feels something for her. Driver's acting makes it pretty clear just what Kylo feels for her. No writer would cast their hero and legacy-of-six-films anti-villain as a young woman and a young man, proceed to give the young man an infatuation with the young woman, and then go absolutely nowhere with it.

@AnneNeville love your post, you are absolutely correct that Raymond would be received very differently. People might say they love the idea of a female hero but if she's still being perceived as a 'victim' of Kylo's 'abuse' (seriously? This is hardly a domestic violence plot line), they are positioning her as the damsel. And this ties in to the insistence that Finn is a hero on equal footing with Rey. I love Finn and know they will do more with his character - he has an awful lot of potential, particularly based on the qualities shown in his story in Before the Awakening. But he was given a lot of the comic relief role in TFA. He was told 'that's not how the force works', to tone it down when talking to Phasma, that we laugh at him when he's drinking from the giant pig's trough. He will come into his own, but he's not the primary hero of TFA, Rey is. She faces Kylo more than once and defeats him. There's nothing abusive or oppressive about how this wonderful female character is portrayed or treated by her villain.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:It occurs to me that a lot of the pushback that the Kylo-Rey dynamic gets is actually due to people's discomfort with TFA having a female protagonist. Acts between the protagonist and antagonist that would be interpreted neutrally in a male-male, typical antagonist/protagonist film suddenly take on a different meaning to people, and they react violently. They want to see one kind of story, the safe kind of story that wraps Rey in cotton wool, rather than the kind of story that Raymond would have.

If Kylo had enquired "What boy?" people would think that the antagonist had perhaps had a vision of the person prophosied to take him down, If Raymond were pursued through Takodana woods, he would be bravely fighting back against a bad guy, not terrified and retreating. It wouldn't be "creepy," it would be taken as a matter of course. Of course the villain is going to chase down the hero! That's what villains do!

If Raymond had been mind probed and turned the tables on Kylo, people would be cheering about him coming into his own with the Force. Instead, there are cries of "Mary Sue" and a stubborn insistence that Rey was violated and mind-raped. Her victory over Kylo is brushed over, and all the things that the filmmakers did to make that scene as "un creepy" as possible (Kylo kneeling, removing all the unnecessary touching that was in the novel) are forgotten.

Raymond mind probed in an interrogation chair would be called torture, but not rape. And I really do think that the audience would be more focused on how Raymond beat the bad guy, rather than clinging to the fact that the bad guy did something bad to him.

There also would probably have been more blood, like with Poe. The tree-throw wouldn't be "abuse," just a bad guy doing a bad thing.

I feel like the insistence that Kylo is abusive and creepy towards Rey misses the point completely. The villain is bad to the hero, that's what villains do. No one would question this dynamic if the hero were Raymond. They would accept it.

But some people cannot accept Rey as a hero. They cannot accept that she could possibly be presented as Kylo Ren's equal, as a person capable of defending herself. She's a girl, after all, and such a sweet little thing (not someone who beats ruffians with a stick and takes them down en masse, not someone who taught herself how to fly and fix things and survive all alone).

If Rey were a man, she'd practically be as epic as Indiana Jones. Instead, she's a victim and a Mary Sue.

And this makes me sad, because I want Rey-the-hero, and I guess a lot of people don't want to accept that if a woman is going to be the hero/protagonist, she's actually going to have to face down bad guys and pay the price for that.

@AnneNeville
These lines would have taken the homo-erotic cake right under Poe's nose if Raymond was a thing LOL:

"You know I can take whatever I want."
"Don't be afraid, I feel it too."
"You need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the Force!"

You pretty much summed up my modern fairytale dynamic paper from a different perspective.

None of Kylo's interactions with Rey make sense unless you're willing to accept that he feels something for her. Driver's acting makes it pretty clear just what Kylo feels for her. No writer would cast their hero and legacy-of-six-films anti-villain as a young woman and a young man, proceed to give the young man an infatuation with the young woman, and then go absolutely nowhere with it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, I am talking about a similar dynamic as you did in your meta. I think that people would have been fairly resistant to seeing Rey get hurt in the way a male protagonist gets hurt (and actually, she doesn't get hurt that badly overall, not in this film) even if the villain had been an older man or a woman, though. The fact that Kylo is a young man brings in the sexual/romantic undertones in a much more clear and undeniable way.*

If Rey were Raymond, the Raylo dynamic would be sizzling, too. There would be so much slash being written right now. And the Raymond-Kylo-Hux stuff would be something to be seen . . .

* Though it has been denied.

BastilaBey wrote:@AnneNeville love your post, you are absolutely correct that Raymond would be received very differently. People might say they love the idea of a female hero but if she's still being perceived as a 'victim' of Kylo's 'abuse' (seriously? This is hardly a domestic violence plot line), they are positioning her as the damsel. And this ties in to the insistence that Finn is a hero on equal footing with Rey. I love Finn and know they will do more with his character - he has an awful lot of potential, particularly based on the qualities shown in his story in Before the Awakening. But he was given a lot of the comic relief role in TFA. He was told 'that's not how the force works', to tone it down when talking to Phasma, that we laugh at him when he's drinking from the giant pig's trough. He will come into his own, but he's not the primary hero of TFA, Rey is. She faces Kylo more than once and defeats him. There's nothing abusive or oppressive about how this wonderful female character is portrayed or treated by her villain.

@BastilaBey

I feel a little bad for Finn, to be honest. Upon third viewing, I did a double (triple) take when they made him drink out of the trough with the giant space pig. It was funny, but in a cringe-y kind of way. Not very dignified for a potential hero and love interest.

The scar needs to stay as a physical reminder to Rey when they encounter each other again of what she did. But also I can't see Snoke allowing Kylo to have it healed in a Bacta tank - he seems the type to want it to be a reminder of Kylo's weakness (his compassion for Rey) to be like 'look what your weakness did'.

I think a lot of people can't accept female protagonists which I find odd because over the years we've had some very kick a** female heroines - Ripley in the Alien films, Sarah Connor in the Terminator films, even Jamie Lee Curtis in the initial Halloween films. All empowered women who often fought men and they were accepted, but when it comes to Rey some people just can't or wont accept her as the protagonist against a male antagonist.

@AnneNeville
Well Kylo got his a** kicked by a newbie so I think both Finn and him were not exactly shown at their most dignified moments. Han died. Luke looks pissed. I'd say TFA was not exactly a merry-go-round time for any representative of the male population

SanghaRen wrote:@AnneNeville
Well Kylo got his a** kicked by a newbie so I think both Finn and him were not exactly shown at their most dignified moments. Han died. Luke looks pissed. I'd say TFA was not exactly a merry-go-round time for any representative of the male population

@SanghaRen


Yes but at least Rey got to see his Awesome loreal hair and glorious hotness before she jacked him.

Rogue Rey wrote:The scar needs to stay as a physical reminder to Rey when they encounter each other again of what she did. But also I can't see Snoke allowing Kylo to have it healed in a Bacta tank - he seems the type to want it to be a reminder of Kylo's weakness (his compassion for Rey) to be like 'look what your weakness did'.

I think a lot of people can't accept female protagonists which I find odd because over the years we've had some very kick a** female heroines - Ripley in the Alien films, Sarah Connor in the Terminator films, even Jamie Lee Curtis in the initial Halloween films. All empowered women who often fought men and they were accepted, but when it comes to Rey some people just can't or wont accept her as the protagonist against a male antagonist.

@Rogue Rey

It's because if they accept it, they can no longer deny that the hero villain dynamic of TFA is one like Beauty and the Beast. As @frolickingfizzgig set out in her meta, for it to be a more conventional hero villain story, Kylo Ren would have been an older female character - like Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Little Mermaid, etc. We've had the father and son dynamic before in Star Wars and they've obviously decided to go for something different this time, which is really exciting. That Kylo is young and attractive - to much of the audience as well as potentially Rey herself - is threatening. It makes it emotionally complex, it blurs the lines of good and evil, and suggests that the 'nice guy' won't end up with the beautiful leading lady. Fanboys want to live vicariously through Finn and see him get the girl he so deserves. As if her friendship won't be meaningful enough for him.