ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 8

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren yes, sorry perhaps I phrased badly. I understand where you're coming from, it's me commenting on the wider fandom' perception of 'shipping' and how it maybe stops them from considering Kylo's compassion towards Rey and what it could mean for the story as it continues. It's as if people think we are invested in pushing together two characters that don't mean anything to each other. But they are the central protagonist and antagonist, and if they are enemies now, they are unlikely to by the end - that's Star Wars.

Let me put it this way: is it seen as 'supporting' Romeo and Juliet to write an essay about their interactions? Would it be seen as an endorsement of Cathy and Heathcliff's unhealthy, destructive love simply to acknowledge it as the crux of Wuthering Heights? It's not about us 'campaigning' for Reylo by writing out our theories, it's about observing and interpreting what TFA gave us, and then perhaps speculating on how episodes 8 and 9 might elaborate.

@BastilaBey

I agree. And to add to this, those of us who saw Reylo in TFA weren't imagining things. Granted, as fans we like to romanticize the notion of what could happen between them, but something clearly did happen that had more under the surface than simple rivalry. Kylo does have compassion for Rey; it was noted in the novels, and I believe stricken from the film during editing. To keep them as simple rivals would be stagnate and dull. I think Kylo is going to go through a tremendous character arc, and that will be influenced largely by his compassion and feelings for Rey. Hey, at least we're an imaginative bunch. What the heck are we supposed to do for the next year and a half, twiddle our thumbs and whistle the imperial march? Of course we're observing the heck out of it. Their dynamic in the movie was one of the most interesting!

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren yes, sorry perhaps I phrased badly. I understand where you're coming from, it's me commenting on the wider fandom' perception of 'shipping' and how it maybe stops them from considering Kylo's compassion towards Rey and what it could mean for the story as it continues. It's as if people think we are invested in pushing together two characters that don't mean anything to each other. But they are the central protagonist and antagonist, and if they are enemies now, they are unlikely to by the end - that's Star Wars.

Let me put it this way: is it seen as 'supporting' Romeo and Juliet to write an essay about their interactions? Would it be seen as an endorsement of Cathy and Heathcliff's unhealthy, destructive love simply to acknowledge it as the crux of Wuthering Heights? It's not about us 'campaigning' for Reylo by writing out our theories, it's about observing and interpreting what TFA gave us, and then perhaps speculating on how episodes 8 and 9 might elaborate.

@BastilaBey
Exactly. I think the story is going in this direction because I've analyzed the text using techniques I was taught extensively in higher education. I experienced an initial impression the first time I watched the movie (and trust me, it's not that subtle unless you're in total denial), but I wasn't convinced until I looked over the script, dialogue and overall characterization. Absolutely everything "artistic" about this film leads us to this trajectory, from the significance of Rey defeating her designated antagonist twice to Kylo's role as the Skywalker legacy whose seduction tore apart the OT heroes. So yes, Rey and Kylo are going to be important to each other. They are the hero and the villain, and they were created to develop together. They're just not quite like Luke and Vader, and I've gone through why so many times in the past.

I support whatever gives us the most satisfying sequel to TFA and whatever leads us to the best, most optimistic development for Rey, Kylo and Finn (and all the other characters as well). I don't go to Star Wars for nihilistic, retcon-filled garbage dump writing, which is exactly what "just a villain" Kylo, "perfect Skywalker hero" Rey and "black sidekick" Finn would be. Nothing about TFA points us in that direction. Finn is going to be the hero in his own story, while Rey is going to forge some kind of connection with Kylo that will go from antagonistic to something else as they help each other through mutual understanding. That doesn't mean we're getting Twilight in space... (as much as I think that's what some fans actually want).

So no, I don't "ship" Kylo and Rey (romantically or otherwise). I don't care about that. What I do care about is VIII respecting and serving as a satisfying continuation of VII, which means certain plot-points and dynamics are undoubtedly going to be followed up on. All the recent spoilers tell me I was right in that assumption.

@frolickingfizzgig Something occurred to me today that might also explain some fans' lack of acknowledgement with regard to Kylo's behavior around Rey and his overall conflict. The saga has clearly moved away from George Lucas' very 'tell, don't show' way of creating a story. Consider the difference between Anakin's "What have I done?" moment as he drops to the floor in an almost pantomime way of showing his regret after killing someone. Compare that to Kylo's expression after killing his father. His eyes widen and his mouth opens in shock, but it's absolutely nowhere near that ridiculous level of acting, where the audience is being told BEYOND ALL DOUBT what Anakin is thinking. It's not realistic, what he says, but the more naturalistic acting in TFA is in keeping with current directorial conventions.

We are told that Anakin is attracted to Padme, not just shown. He is the complete opposite of subtle, following her around making puppy eyes and telling her she's "haunting him", calling her an angel, etc. While we consider it obvious now that Kylo treats Rey differently - carrying her in his arms, watching her sleep, unmasking when she expresses discomfort, his microexpressions when he reads her thoughts - they are just that, microexpressions. It requires more on the audience's part, and if they are seeing it as the same style as SW films that have come before, they might expect everything to be spelled out.

Eh, I don't necessarily consider "ship" to be an insult or condescending or anything, if that's the thought here. Though some people will use it that way when it serves their argument. Someone who is very analytical of a work of fiction and becomes very involved and excited specifically about the romance between two characters could consider themselves a 'shipper'. Though I think it involves the context of being in a fandom and interacting with other fans. Someone who writes analytical essays about works like Romeo and Juliet but are not involved in the nebulous concept of 'fandom' wouldn't consider themselves a shipper, I imagine. They probably wouldn't even know what the term means. And some people do "campaign" for Reylo through their fanworks and try to write it out so other fans can maybe see what they see, or make it clear that they're heavily invested in their dynamic and possibly in it becoming canon, and thus they "ship it". It's not such a clear cut thing.

Generally seeing romantic tension in something and wanting to see it played out in a satisfactory way is not necessarily shipping. But personally I'd say I "ship it" because I do both of those things and look at fandom work and talk with fans about it regularly. Shipping doesn't always mean you're pushing characters together who have no chemistry at all. At least not in the current way I see the term used. Hence why you can "ship" characters that are already solidly together in a work of fiction. The term can be used as a shame tactic along those lines, though, akin to the "fangirl" label and such. For example, many antis will see some thought out meta about hints of Reylo within the way scenes are shot or the text is written and try to handwave it by just calling you a "shipper" or saying you have your "ship goggles" on. It all depends on how you want to throw the label around.

It's a really hard concept to pin down. I don't usually think all that analytically about the term because it's just kind of been a word in my vocabulary for all the years I've been involved in 'fandom'. It's interesting to see people ponder about it here!

BastilaBey wrote:@frolickingfizzgig Something occurred to me today that might also explain some fans' lack of acknowledgement with regard to Kylo's behavior around Rey and his overall conflict. The saga has clearly moved away from George Lucas' very 'tell, don't show' way of creating a story. Consider the difference between Anakin's "What have I done?" moment as he drops to the floor in an almost pantomime way of showing his regret after killing someone. Compare that to Kylo's expression after killing his father. His eyes widen and his mouth opens in shock, but it's absolutely nowhere near that ridiculous level of acting, where the audience is being told BEYOND ALL DOUBT what Anakin is thinking. It's not realistic, what he says, but the more naturalistic acting in TFA is in keeping with current directorial conventions.

We are told that Anakin is attracted to Padme, not just shown. He is the complete opposite of subtle, following her around making puppy eyes and telling her she's "haunting him", calling her an angel, etc. While we consider it obvious now that Kylo treats Rey differently - carrying her in his arms, watching her sleep, unmasking when she expresses discomfort, his microexpressions when he reads her thoughts - they are just that, microexpressions. It requires more on the audience's part, and if they are seeing it as the same style as SW films that have come before, they might expect everything to be spelled out.

@BastilaBey
I think that's definitely part of it. Kylo's redemption was a sure thing for me the first time I saw the movie. As soon as I knew who he was there was no doubt in my mind. It wasn't even a question. I knew our trilogy was going to detail Kylo's redemption and atonement. I actually think a lot of fans haven't seen a story like this play out before, so it's something "new". But if it's done well and makes sense and is narratively satisfying, even the most reluctant will probably hop on-board.

@ZioRen
I think people have all kinds of different definitions at this point, and I'm not crazy about "shipping" the way I see it (and the way most people see it). I think fandom culture is extremely unhealthy if not experienced in the right environment (see: all of Tumblr for reference). I associate shipping with Tumblr. Maybe it's a really ignorant way to see it, but I can't help it. Nothing about the SW fan interactions outside this forum has made me anything short of exasperated. Some really are in it for the "ship" war and the "ship" drama, and that's what I really consider to be "shipping".

Yeah I don't take the word shipper as an insult at all.  I never knew the term before TFA came out, but when I heard i I immediately identified with it because it's something I had been doing since I was a kid with soaps and even other genres.  Anybody here old enough to remember Voltron?  I shipped Lotor and Allura to the high heavens and I was 10!  If only the Internet had been around then.  

Now, like I previously said, there's pairings that you think might just be good together (Daenyrous and Jon Snow anyone?), and pairings where the story trajectory actually points to (see Reylo).  Both to me fall under ships, even though they're a bit different at in their likelyhood.

BastilaBey wrote:@frolickingfizzgig Something occurred to me today that might also explain some fans' lack of acknowledgement with regard to Kylo's behavior around Rey and his overall conflict. The saga has clearly moved away from George Lucas' very 'tell, don't show' way of creating a story. Consider the difference between Anakin's "What have I done?" moment as he drops to the floor in an almost pantomime way of showing his regret after killing someone. Compare that to Kylo's expression after killing his father. His eyes widen and his mouth opens in shock, but it's absolutely nowhere near that ridiculous level of acting, where the audience is being told BEYOND ALL DOUBT what Anakin is thinking. It's not realistic, what he says, but the more naturalistic acting in TFA is in keeping with current directorial conventions.

We are told that Anakin is attracted to Padme, not just shown. He is the complete opposite of subtle, following her around making puppy eyes and telling her she's "haunting him", calling her an angel, etc. While we consider it obvious now that Kylo treats Rey differently - carrying her in his arms, watching her sleep, unmasking when she expresses discomfort, his microexpressions when he reads her thoughts - they are just that, microexpressions. It requires more on the audience's part, and if they are seeing it as the same style as SW films that have come before, they might expect everything to be spelled out.

@BastilaBey

Too bad because this trilogy is clearly different. TFA was, above all, a well-made film. Although it did borrow OT narrative elements to welcome fans back into this beloved universe, I don't consider it a rehash of ANH at all (except for Death Star 3), it wasn't shy of showing real personal drama, conflict, 3-dimensional characters and an interesting new story that provokes analysis and diverse reactions, even controversy. Of course, the icing of the cake was the fascinating heroine/villain relationship, which was unexpected. It's a real shame some people don't appreciate this original take and complain that it's the same story again. Well, it's not. We've never had a young villain, who also happens to be the sole carrier of the Skywalker legacy. We've never had a complex, tension-filled Dynamo between a make and female force sensitives who represent the dark side and the light resoectively. To me, the main point or art is to make you think about stuff and discover them for yourself. Apologies to any prequel fans, they were not bad movies per se, but to me, one of the main problems was that the interactions between the characters felt flat. If it's necessary to spell out verbally every single emotion they're experiencing and what's supposed to happen at any given moment in time, there's something wrung with the storytelling. I like products that assume intelligence on part of the audience and doesn't consider it necessary to spoon feed them. It's so much better when you discover the messages on your own, that makes the experience unique. Kylo and Rey's interactions are never going to be a one dimensional love story. It's interesting when you think about it, there was more chemistry and tension between them in three scenes that between Anakin and Padme in 3 movies. I'm looking forward to this trilogy because, based on TFA, it promises something new abd exciting, a new take on SW as a cinematic universe, something truly bold and original that's well made and worth seeing. And Kylo is certainly a character whose story is worth telling, they wouldn't have made us so invested in his fate otherwise. I do hope this trend of risk taking and bold, engaging storytelling continues in VIII and XI as we watch him and Rey develop and find belonging in each other.

BastilaBey wrote:@frolickingfizzgig Something occurred to me today that might also explain some fans' lack of acknowledgement with regard to Kylo's behavior around Rey and his overall conflict. The saga has clearly moved away from George Lucas' very 'tell, don't show' way of creating a story. Consider the difference between Anakin's "What have I done?" moment as he drops to the floor in an almost pantomime way of showing his regret after killing someone. Compare that to Kylo's expression after killing his father. His eyes widen and his mouth opens in shock, but it's absolutely nowhere near that ridiculous level of acting, where the audience is being told BEYOND ALL DOUBT what Anakin is thinking. It's not realistic, what he says, but the more naturalistic acting in TFA is in keeping with current directorial conventions.

We are told that Anakin is attracted to Padme, not just shown. He is the complete opposite of subtle, following her around making puppy eyes and telling her she's "haunting him", calling her an angel, etc. While we consider it obvious now that Kylo treats Rey differently - carrying her in his arms, watching her sleep, unmasking when she expresses discomfort, his microexpressions when he reads her thoughts - they are just that, microexpressions. It requires more on the audience's part, and if they are seeing it as the same style as SW films that have come before, they might expect everything to be spelled out.

@BastilaBey

Those of us who are Lawrence Kasdan fans would give him full credit for that shift!

Scriptnotes, Ep 247: The One with Lawrence Kasdan — Transcript

Lawrence: Well, the whole thing that interests me about writing movies, aside from the images and the power of the images and the way you can do that has nothing to do with dialogue, but I’m always interested in you have a character but he doesn’t have any shape. There’s no molding. There’s no contrast until there’s the light of another character shown on him.
And what’s wonderful is a movie where you say, “Oh my god, that character is so right about the other one. And I hadn’t thought of that.” And the protagonist, who you started with, is thinking, “Damn, she’s right about me,” but he can’t let that out. If it’s in his eyes. And then maybe later in the story he proves himself not to be exactly what she thought. What a great surprise that is. That’s the delight of a good movie.

The Force Awakens: Show, Don’t Tell

Where writers J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan prove themselves far more adept is in the department of character development. There is the perfect blend of old and new here that pays reverence to the universe George Lucas created while ushering in the future of the franchise. So while the structure and plot might feel derivative at times, the established icons mixing with the new blood puts a twist on this formula that will more than satisfy most.

After a series of prequels that talked far too much, Abrams refuses to include any exposition that isn’t absolutely necessary. He’s constantly showing the audience what motivates these characters, and rarely explicitly telling them.

This reluctance to explain every detail will likely be a stumbling point for a portion of the audience though. I’m perhaps more of an Abrams fan than I am a Star Wars fan (blasphemous, I know), which is why I found some of the questions The Force Awakens leaves unaddressed more fascinating than frustrating. I consider some of these facets of the story better left unexplained, especially when you consider how many conversations it will generate. After all, it’s the mysteries of this franchise that have helped sustain fandom for decades. Ambiguity encourages engagement in my experience, and this is why I’m far more excited to rewatch Episode VII than any of the films that came before it.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@ZioRen
I think people have all kinds of different definitions at this point, and I'm not crazy about "shipping" the way I see it (and the way most people see it). I think fandom culture is extremely unhealthy if not experienced in the right environment (see: all of Tumblr for reference). I associate shipping with Tumblr. Maybe it's a really ignorant way to see it, but I can't help it. Nothing about the SW fan interactions outside this forum has made me anything short of exasperated. Some really are in it for the "ship" war and the "ship" drama, and that's what I really consider to be "shipping".

@FrolickingFizzgig

Believe me, I've gotten a little sour about it too. But I've been around fandom culture for long before Tumblr, so "shipping" doesn't equate to Tumblr for me. Tumblr has just taken concepts I already knew and twisted them into some unhealthy, strange thing. Nobody used to take the term and everything involved with it so seriously back in the day, to the point where people judged their real life character on it. It's kind of frustrating, as is a lot of 'fandom' culture these days. You can ship without ship wars or ship drama. That stuff only really became a thing when everyone started getting overly invested in their ship and it becoming canon. It didn't used to be that way. Like I said, original shipping started specifically for characters you knew would never be together in canon. So ship wars weren't very prevalent (I mean, there were always immature fans who wanted to argue over which ship was better but not nearly to the intensity or numbers that we see now.)

@snufkin Exactly, it's Kasdan! And hopefully Rian Johnson, too

Because aside from the prequels, I was going to mention the contrast between TFA and ANH too, even if fans have called it a total ripoff. I've seen comments elsewhere expressing confusion around the idea of Rey being sent by Leia to Luke. It must mean that Leia knows she's his daughter, right? Why else would she send this girl, and why would Rey even want to go? We know she's fixated on being reunited with her family, ergo it only makes sense that she go if Luke is her long-lost father.

It's the idea that Rey's motivations through the journey don't change unless she explicitly tells us that. Never mind that she forms friendships for the first time in 15 years, or feels like she has found the "father she never had" (actually we are told that, just not by Rey in her own words!). So the idea that by the time she defeats Kylo and has discovered her powers, that she decides to accept the call and goes to find Luke just doesn't make sense to some, unless we are explicitly told why that is on her part. It's seen as a weakness in the writing, a plot hole, rather than a strength in subtlety.

Very interesting new theory from gwendy85:

BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Exactly, it's Kasdan! And hopefully Rian Johnson, too

Because aside from the prequels, I was going to mention the contrast between TFA and ANH too, even if fans have called it a total ripoff. I've seen comments elsewhere expressing confusion around the idea of Rey being sent by Leia to Luke. It must mean that Leia knows she's his daughter, right? Why else would she send this girl, and why would Rey even want to go? We know she's fixated on being reunited with her family, ergo it only makes sense that she go if Luke is her long-lost father.

It's the idea that Rey's motivations through the journey don't change unless she explicitly tells us that. Never mind that she forms friendships for the first time in 15 years, or feels like she has found the "father she never had" (actually we are told that, just not by Rey in her own words!). So the idea that by the time she defeats Kylo and has discovered her powers, that she decides to accept the call and goes to find Luke just doesn't make sense to some, unless we are explicitly told why that is on her part. It's seen as a weakness in the writing, a plot hole, rather than a strength in subtlety.

@BastilaBey

Kasdan: "Kurosawa once said ‘the heroes are the ones that are still changing and the villains are locked and petrified into what they are’ and Harrison embodies in Force Awakens someone that’s still not settled on who he is."

AppleCrumble122 wrote:Very interesting new theory from gwendy85:

@AppleCrumble122

Interesting. For those who haven't watched/listened, the video describes the theory that the "Stay here sweetheart, I'll come back for you" line from the novelization(s) is Kylo in the future. To support this, she pulled out a passage from the jr. novelization that I hadn't previously seen analyzed here where Rey has repeated dreams about this voice, and it states that she isn't sure if it's a dream or a nightmare. It also mentions the "she has seen this man before, in a dream, in a nightmare" when she first encounters Kylo in the forest on Takodana.

It's certainly an interesting parallel with the wording. And if I recall, the Jedi show thing at Disneyland (or was it Disney World) had the female padawan say the line, "Kylo Ren haunts my dreams."

Could all be a coincidence, of course.

Excellent discussion guys. I also agree that Kasden's "show, don't tell" storytelling and the streamlined dialogue had an effect on how many in the audience failed to see Kylo's conflict, likely redemption and the strange connection forged and developing between him and Rey (we can't deny that much of the problem is many people saw the movie through the prism of Rey Skywalker and even Rey Solo googles).

Howevrer, there is no doubt there is ample foreshadowing of the above if one pays attention...Kylo's conflict is shown in his scene with Vader (where he directly verbalized the conflict of his pull to the light) and in his scene with Han (dialogue, but mostly the non-verbal cues like Han's forgiving touch and Kylo's shock and weakness after killing Han) and Kylo's anguish. I thought Kylo's conflict also showed in his contradictory nature (ordering the slaughter of the village, but then sparing Finn after sensing his dilemna). There's also the foreshadowing of Kylo's conflict and redemption in other scenes, like LST telling Kylo he cannot deny the truth that his his family and Kylo telling Snoke he won't be seduced by the light. A lot of Kylo's issues in the ST are going to revolve around coming to terms with himself and his true nature (as Skywalker/Solo, light and dark).

As for Kylo's feelings toward Rey, we've talked about it a hundred times, but the way he acts with Rey is starkingly different than the way he acts with anyone else in the movie. Then if that's not enough, there's those three contrasting scenes (abduction, interrogation and duel) to really highlight the difference with Rey. Oh, and there's the whole Force-off between them and seeing into each other's minds. That's pretty major foreshadowing of something special and unusual developing between them.

People are either willfully ignoring all of this or they paid very little attention to certain parts of the movie.

Kessel89 wrote:Excellent discussion guys. I also agree that Kasden's "show, don't tell" storytelling and the streamlined dialogue had an effect on how many in the audience failed to see Kylo's conflict, likely redemption and the strange connection forged and developing between him and Rey (we can't deny that much of the problem is many people saw the movie through the prism of Rey Skywalker and even Rey Solo googles).

Howevrer, there is no doubt there is ample foreshadowing of the above if one pays attention...Kylo's conflict is shown in his scene with Vader (where he directly verbalized the conflict of his pull to the light) and in his scene with Han (dialogue, but mostly the non-verbal cues like Han's forgiving touch and Kylo's shock and weakness after killing Han) and Kylo's anguish. I thought Kylo's conflict also showed in his contradictory nature (ordering the slaughter of the village, but then sparing Finn after sensing his dilemna). There's also the foreshadowing of Kylo's conflict and redemption in other scenes, like LST telling Kylo he cannot deny the truth that his his family and Kylo telling Snoke he won't be seduced by the light. A lot of Kylo's issues in the ST are going to revolve around coming to terms with himself and his true nature (as Skywalker/Solo, light and dark).

As for Kylo's feelings toward Rey, we've talked about it a hundred times, but the way he acts with Rey is starkingly different than the way he acts with anyone else in the movie. Then if that's not enough, there's those three contrasting scenes (abduction, interrogation and duel) to really highlight the difference with Rey. Oh, and there's the whole Force-off between them and seeing into each other's minds. That's pretty major foreshadowing of something special and unusual developing between them.

People are either willfully ignoring all of this or they paid very little attention to certain parts of the movie.

@Kessel89

I think some of the hype around the callbacks to the original Star Wars movie was a bit of a magic trick, to throw the audience off the scent of what was being set up. Finn becoming a hero in the Resistance as a brother-in-arms with Poe is pretty clear from the first 15 minutes of the movie. Rey's role is more mysterious, including how they didn't show in the marketing (either due to fears of a further sexism backlash or keeping it a surprise) that she's the protagonist. It's a sleight of hand, look over here the familiar elements so that you miss the clues of how it's setting up these two characters as both each other's antagonist and LI. Also that there's more than meets the eye to both Rey (not just plucky, tomboy sidekick to the hero dudes) and Kylo Ren (ambiguous, not just Vader 2.0). That may be the huge shock on a scale of "I am your father" to a lot of people when they see the next movie.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:Very interesting new theory from gwendy85:

@AppleCrumble122

Interesting. For those who haven't watched/listened, the video describes the theory that the "Stay here sweetheart, I'll come back for you" line from the novelization(s) is Kylo in the future. To support this, she pulled out a passage from the jr. novelization that I hadn't previously seen analyzed here where Rey has repeated dreams about this voice, and it states that she isn't sure if it's a dream or a nightmare. It also mentions the "she has seen this man before, in a dream, in a nightmare" when she first encounters Kylo in the forest on Takodana.

It's certainly an interesting parallel with the wording. And if I recall, the Jedi show thing at Disneyland (or was it Disney World) had the female padawan say the line, "Kylo Ren haunts my dreams."

Could all be a coincidence, of course.

@ISeeAnIsland

Yes, the theme of dreams and visions is interesting. Right now, I think the voice is likely be tied to Rey's previous abandonment and the past (if that part of her story hasn't changed from the novel to the movie), but I've always been curious and intrigued by that novel passage about Rey having seen Kylo, "in a daydream, in a nightmare." I don't know how canon it is, but the line and theme make sense to me as I got the feeling there is an obvious (unknown) connection between them. When Kylo first appeared in Takodana, there was almost this vague sense of familiarity, but unknown danger. Also, Kylo seemed strangely familiar with Rey, in an almost amicable way.

I have never read the junior novelization, but I'll definitely check it out, along Gwendy's video too.

Kessel89 wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:Very interesting new theory from gwendy85:

@AppleCrumble122

Interesting. For those who haven't watched/listened, the video describes the theory that the "Stay here sweetheart, I'll come back for you" line from the novelization(s) is Kylo in the future. To support this, she pulled out a passage from the jr. novelization that I hadn't previously seen analyzed here where Rey has repeated dreams about this voice, and it states that she isn't sure if it's a dream or a nightmare. It also mentions the "she has seen this man before, in a dream, in a nightmare" when she first encounters Kylo in the forest on Takodana.

It's certainly an interesting parallel with the wording. And if I recall, the Jedi show thing at Disneyland (or was it Disney World) had the female padawan say the line, "Kylo Ren haunts my dreams."

Could all be a coincidence, of course.

@ISeeAnIsland

Yes, the theme of dreams and visions is interesting. Right now, I think the voice is likely be tied to Rey's previous abandonment and the past (if that part of her story hasn't changed from the novel to the movie), but I've always been curious and intrigued by that novel passage about Rey having seen Kylo, "in a daydream, in a nightmare." I don't know how canon it is, but the line and theme make sense to me as I got the feeling there is an obvious (unknown) connection between them. When Kylo first appeared in Takodana, there was almost this vague sense of familiarity, but unknown danger. Also, Kylo seemed strangely familiar with Rey, in an almost amicable way.

I have never read the junior novelization, but I'll definitely check it out, along Gwendy's video too.

@Kessel89

I think that the it is Kylo/Ben from the past, I posted about this in the Rey Kenobi files, reoccurring dreams are usually due to some traumatic experience.

BastilaBey wrote:It's the idea that Rey's motivations through the journey don't change unless she explicitly tells us that. Never mind that she forms friendships for the first time in 15 years, or feels like she has found the "father she never had" (actually we are told that, just not by Rey in her own words!). So the idea that by the time she defeats Kylo and has discovered her powers, that she decides to accept the call and goes to find Luke just doesn't make sense to some, unless we are explicitly told why that is on her part. It's seen as a weakness in the writing, a plot hole, rather than a strength in subtlety.

@BastilaBey

I personally do feel that the end of Rey's arc in TFA is very muddled and her motivations are left frustratingly unclear. I can tell that they've changed, but I don't know what they are and what Rey wants with Luke and how she feels about her powers outside of being amazed and puzzled by the things she finds out she can do.

TFA sort of veers between spelling things out in black marker, with characters talking about what they want or how they feel (Rey: I have to get back to Jakku, Kylo: I feel it again, the pull to the light, Kylo: you think he (Han) is the father you never had), and then either playing it really subtle or not bothering with explanations in the rush to get to the next scene. IMO the reason people miss out on Kylo's stricken expression after kiling Han is partly because it happens in a blink of an eye and the film doesn't linger enough on this moment before it's go go go again.

Saracene wrote:I personally do feel that the end of Rey's arc in TFA is very muddled and her motivations are left frustratingly unclear. I can tell that they've changed, but I don't know what they are and what Rey wants with Luke and how she feels about her powers outside of being amazed and puzzled by the things she finds out she can do.

@Saracene

At least we know for certain that she doesn't want to go back to Jakku anymore. And after experiencing the shrewdness and reach of the FO firsthand I doubt she has anywhere else to go anyway.

Today I've been told about two kids that were adopted in my town. The kids came from orphanages in easter Europe. One of them is a girl who is now a teen and is happy and adjusted to her new family. Her new parents wanted her to keep her mother tongue and not to lose her roots so they took her to clases in this language but the girl stopped talking altogether as if she could't speak any of the two languages. They took her to a psychologist and it seems she had abandonment issues and associated her mother tongue with unpleasant experiences. She feared to be abandoned again so she stopped going to Russian classes and only spoke the language of her new parents.

The other kid was a boy and also had terrible abandonment issues. With him the adoptive parents' efforts were unable to make him adap well or feel good. He was scared they'd take him back to his old orphanage. These are two examples that show us how unreal Rey and Finn's reactions to their past are. Certain experiences mark people one way or another and theirs implied trauma, especially in Ray's case. Kylo's trauma is understandable, Rey and Finn's lackthereof is unrealistic. People raised by sand, like Pablo said, find it difficult to cope and if they haven't any problems they aren't so convincing as characters.

FWIW, I do think that the "wait here sweetheart, I'll be back for you" is from the past, if it's even still canon. And I don't think that it was Ben/Luke who left her on Jakku--that's been nearly completely disproved by the timeline. BUT what I think is really interesting about gwendy85's theory is that the daydream/nightmare thing appeared in several places in supplemental reading.

It makes me wonder if we'll hear more about Rey's dreams in VIII.

So many things guys....

About the shipping: tumblr and shipping are not the same thing, period, and fandom life can be very very fun everywhere, also on tumblr. Maybe I am lucky, or I had chose very well who follow or not follow or block, but on tumblr I see drama rarely to be honest. Said so, I personally can't ship two characters not meant to be together from their writers. It's not canon fixation, it's just lack of interest from my part about a fictional pairing not meant to be. I like the story more than the "you two could be so cute together", just that. No harm in that kind of shipping, but it's not my cup of tea.

About Rey change of motivation, for me it was not so well executed. I don't know if it's a problem of editing, or lack of some more (maybe just one) scenes. But her strong will to find her family deserved a better resolution and farewell, imo.
I like Kasdan approach to storytelling more than GL one, anyway.

About the sweetheart thing... Gwendy is very "for the fluff", I personally don't think that the word sweetheart could ever get out from Kylo Ren's mouth. Never ever. Maybe with his kid, one day, but not with Rey. My opinion, obviously.

Saracene wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:It's the idea that Rey's motivations through the journey don't change unless she explicitly tells us that. Never mind that she forms friendships for the first time in 15 years, or feels like she has found the "father she never had" (actually we are told that, just not by Rey in her own words!). So the idea that by the time she defeats Kylo and has discovered her powers, that she decides to accept the call and goes to find Luke just doesn't make sense to some, unless we are explicitly told why that is on her part. It's seen as a weakness in the writing, a plot hole, rather than a strength in subtlety.

@BastilaBey

I personally do feel that the end of Rey's arc in TFA is very muddled and her motivations are left frustratingly unclear. I can tell that they've changed, but I don't know what they are and what Rey wants with Luke and how she feels about her powers outside of being amazed and puzzled by the things she finds out she can do.

TFA sort of veers between spelling things out in black marker, with characters talking about what they want or how they feel (Rey: I have to get back to Jakku, Kylo: I feel it again, the pull to the light, Kylo: you think he (Han) is the father you never had), and then either playing it really subtle or not bothering with explanations in the rush to get to the next scene. IMO the reason people miss out on Kylo's stricken expression after kiling Han is partly because it happens in a blink of an eye and the film doesn't linger enough on this moment before it's go go go again.

@Saracene

I personally don't get how people missed that. I wasn't paying too much attention to Kylo on my first viewing and I thought it was abundantly clear that he was wrecked by that moment. But I guess it would have been better if they'd lingered on it a little longer.

On another note, I still don't buy that the "sweetheart" line is Kylo. It'd be awesome if it was, but none of the meta has quite convinced me. Maybe because I can't picture Kylo calling Rey "sweetheart" at any point for any reason in these movies, even in a romance plot!

@zenbrainjam I think the same about 'sweetheart'. Honestly when I read it, it just seemed like solo daughter misdirection, and it worked because people thought it meant Han had dropped her off on Jakku.

Here's the Takodana and interrogation scenes from the Lego games. Skip to 7:20 for the latter .