The Last Jedi Trailer(s): NO SPOILERS

I'm gonna duck now as I stupidly read something where Mike Zeroh was the source. Above Snoke's throne is a spherical object which I hadn't noticed - however I'm not sure its part of his projection equipment. This mechanical sphere is attached to what almost looks like Giger like structures branching off to either side. No idea what they're ultimately attached to as they're not in the BTS shot. Could they possibly connect up to the turture/ not torture devices ? Or they're just decorative.

Looks like a coat of arms to me.

@MrsWindu don't worry! Then it means we are two who probably read the same article where Mike Zeroh is the source  Doesn't mean IMO that the question you raise is silly or that every suggestion Zeroh makes must be blacklisted although he is for sure no reliable source. For once, I didn't find his suggestion bad: he seems to think this is an holocron projector and I tend to agree with him. But your idea that it could be connected with these two symmetrical devices makes also much sense IMO.

@nite0wl29

If Snoke is about balance and focal point and wants both dark nd light. Why is he trying to surpress Kylo's light side?

Let's remember that their destinies are intertwined and both are halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. Snoke is speaking probably to Kylo or Rey but it doesn't matter because both of them are in it equally. Not just Kylo. In fact we don't know if Snoke didn't targeted Rey too and her parents dumped her on Jakku away from him. He even wanted her to kill Kylo, presumably if it was his voice during their SKB fight. It could be that Rey is getting stronger and Kylo weaker with emotions, because he leans towards light and she leans towards darkness.

The line between good and evil ... light and dark ... Rey and Kylo blurs in this movie.

DarthRen wrote:@nite0wl29

If Snoke is about balance and focal point and wants both dark nd light. Why is he trying to surpress Kylo's light oside?
Let's remember that their destinies are intertwined and both are halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. Snoke is speaking probably to Kylo or Rey but it doesn't matter because both of them are in it equally. Not just Kylo. In fact we don't know if Snoke didn't targeted Rey too and her parents dumped her on Jakku away from him. He even wanted her to kill Kylo, presumably if it was his voice during their SKB fight. It could be that Rey is getting stronger and Kylo weaker with emotions, because he leans towards light and she leans towards darkness.

The line between good and evil ... light and dark ... Rey and Kylo blurs in this movie.

@DarthRen

Yes, it seems to be a contradiction. I am not sure, but wasn’t the focal point of light and dark only from the novelization? Which would make it only half-canon. I have the feeling this idea was dropped in favor of just raw power. And maybe Snoke indeed needs a dark raw power and a light raw power and when there was an awakening, he felt that it was rather a light inlined one and thought “The time has come, Kylo needs to get full dark. I’ll nudge him towards killing his father.”

SanghaRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:@nite0wl29

If Snoke is about balance and focal point and wants both dark nd light. Why is he trying to surpress Kylo's light oside?
Let's remember that their destinies are intertwined and both are halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. Snoke is speaking probably to Kylo or Rey but it doesn't matter because both of them are in it equally. Not just Kylo. In fact we don't know if Snoke didn't targeted Rey too and her parents dumped her on Jakku away from him. He even wanted her to kill Kylo, presumably if it was his voice during their SKB fight. It could be that Rey is getting stronger and Kylo weaker with emotions, because he leans towards light and she leans towards darkness.

The line between good and evil ... light and dark ... Rey and Kylo blurs in this movie.

@DarthRen

Yes, it seems to be a contradiction. I am not sure, but wasn’t the focal point of light and dark only from the novelization? Which would make it only half-canon. I have the feeling this idea was dropped in favor of just raw power. And maybe Snoke indeed needs a dark raw power and a light raw power and when there was an awakening, he felt that it was rather a light inlined one and thought “The time has come, Kylo needs to get full dark. I’ll nudge him towards killing his father.”

@SanghaRen

It was from novelization. Pablo Hidalgo said that novelization is as canon as movie, basically filling some gaps.

I think too that Rian probably went with raw power instead, Adam said something about changes to established canon. Not one person symbolizing it, but two instead and making a bridge between Kylo and Rey. Finding some common ground to work with. I think it's a smart idea.

Also makes sense dark raw power and light raw powers, duality is a big thing in TLJ and Kylo has pull to the light and maybe Rey has pull to the light. If Rey is willing out of anger to attack Luke and we saw glimpses of her rage in TFA. We might see Kylo's humanity/light and Rey's anger/darkness. Yin and Yang are two halves as light and darkness, but one has a bit of light and the other a bit of darkness. To achieving the perfect balance.

DarthRen wrote:@nite0wl29

If Snoke is about balance and focal point and wants both dark nd light. Why is he trying to surpress Kylo's light side?

Let's remember that their destinies are intertwined and both are halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. Snoke is speaking probably to Kylo or Rey but it doesn't matter because both of them are in it equally. Not just Kylo. In fact we don't know if Snoke didn't targeted Rey too and her parents dumped her on Jakku away from him. He even wanted her to kill Kylo, presumably if it was his voice during their SKB fight. It could be that Rey is getting stronger and Kylo weaker with emotions, because he leans towards light and she leans towards darkness.

The line between good and evil ... light and dark ... Rey and Kylo blurs in this movie.

@DarthRen

My feeling is that Kylo is actually the one who wants to get rid of the light within, not Snoke's.

That sounds very contradictory but:

1) Does Snoke wants to extinguish the light within Kylo ?

I don't have the feeling that Snoke wants Kylo to become a masterpiece of darkness. If so, Kylo is definitely not the best candidate given how torn apart he is. And Snoke is totally aware that Kylo is equally made of both the dark side of the light and thus was born with an equal potential for good and evil. If Snoke was so interested in having a 100% dark-side user, shouldn't he have chosen someone with a darker potential? That's why I tend to think that Snoke wants to achieve some balance between the DS and the LS within Kylo but balance doesn't mean that it wouldn't be used for evil

I don't think that Snoke intended to make Kylo extinguish the light in pushing him to kill his father. If Snoke knows Kylo that well, he is certainly aware that the murder could only lead to more conflict and thus more lightwithin. And indeed, it didn't extinguish the light within on the very contrary.


“It is far more than that. It is where you are from. What you are made of. The dark side - and the light.

The lines confirms that Kylo has both DS and LS, it doesn't seem that it bothers Snoke. The interesting thing is that the sentence suggests to me that Kylo has more darkness than light, which means that the balance has been achieved yet. So if Snoke really wants to achieve balance within Kylo, he must actually make the light increase within Kylo without endangering his plan.

And here comes the tricks: what if Snoke knew that pushing Kylo to kill his father would actually make the light grow within, ultimately serving his purpose on the long run

Ren considered his reply carefully. “It does not matter. He means nothing to me. My allegiance is with you. No one will stand in our way.”

Snoke nodded. “We shall see. We shall see.”

It was a dismissal. Turning, wholly preoccupied now, Ren followed General Hux in exiting the vast chamber. When he was gone, a grotesque smile twisted accross Snoke’s countenance.

We know that Han's death didn't make Kylo darker, on the very contrary:

Stunned by his own action, Kylo Ren fell to his knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened.

However, something anormal did happen as Kylo killed his father:

Then, as the light from outside was fully blocked by the flow of descending, accumulating dark energy, Ren ignited the lightsaber - and the fiery red beam lanced outward to pierce Han’s chest from front to back.

“Thank you,” Ren murmured, and truly, the darkness above was mimicked by the darkness in his voice

Stunned by his own action, Kylo Ren fell to his knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened.


Knowing the importance of Shakespearian tragic dimension of this scene (Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet), I can't help but seeing similarities with this Disney moment:




Simba : "It was an accident [...] I am no murderer"

[...]

Scar : "Here is my little secret. I killed Mufasa!"

Listen the soundtrack between 0:39 - 0:50. Don't the voices in the background remind you a little of something?


I don't want to draw definitive conclusion but I think that Snoke's goal definitely wasn't to make Kylo an remorseful murderer on the very contrary. My feeling is that he wanted to make Ben feeling guilty of the murder of his father like Simba felt responsible for the death of his own father although Scar murdered.

So I think that Snoke's goal was to fool Kylo but not the way we usually interpret it: He didn't only made him believe that the murder would make him stronger and darker.  He made him believe that the murder would make him stronger and darker although he perfectly knew IMO that it wouldn't and that it would serve his purpose.

2) Why does Kylo want to erase the light within?

So here comes the contradiction: why would Kylo want to extinguish the light more than Snoke       Is it because he is a Vader fanboy who wants to become as dark as Grandpa  Is it only because he wants to be free of the pain caused by the conflict  

Here is what Adam said in his last interview:

"The person Kylo’s pretending to be on the outside is not who he is. He’s a vulnerable kid who doesn’t know where to put his energy, but when he puts his mask on, suddenly, he’s playing a role"

==> So Kylo is actually playing a role, the role of a person who is different than the real person he is deep inside. Then comes the sentence in which Adam compares Kylo to Princess Yuki from the Hidden Fortress :

You have, also, the hidden identity of this princess who’s hiding who she really is so she can survive and Kylo Ren and her hiding behind these artifices,” Driver said.

==> Adam could have used many other examples of characters who hide their true self. And yet, he chose to compare Kylo with a princess who hide her true self for survival reasons. So what if Kylo was actually trying to make himself darker than he is for survival reasons too  

That sounds crazy but maybe that  there is actually a game of chess between Snoke and Kylo: Snoke manipulates Kylo in making him believe that he must extinguish the light within although his true intention is to lead  him to a balance that can serve his evil purpose; From his side, Kylo acts like a docile student who doesn't question his teacher's lesson but, aware of the real intentions behind,  tries desperately to extinguish the light within (since darkness is more prominent within) and thus delay Snoke's plan    

Kylo may be unaware of Snoke's true agenda with him but like Han he knows deep inside him that Snoke wants something specific from him. Like any abused victim, he can't bring himself to leave his abuser but it doesn't mean that he isn't trying to protect himself from the ultimate goal. So maybe that the creepy truth is that Kylo is desperately trying to extinguish the light for good to prevent the balance of darkness and light Snoke is trying to achieve with him and thus delay the agenda

If one think about it, Ben resisted Snoke 23 years before falling under his grip but in 6 years he didn't give him everything he wants.  Like someone (don't remember who, sorry) pointed out, Han's warning is very reminiscent of parents warning their virgin daughter that she should better leave the bad boyfriend before he takes what he wants and leave her. That applies pretty well with the idea of an arranged marriage too : Snoke would have courted Kylo for 23 years until their arranged marriage, a marriage that hasn't been "consummated" yet in 6 years because the bride ain't ready.

Creepy parallel I admit but something tells me that Kylo's "You know I can take whatever I want" line to Rey didn't came completely out from nowhere.

I worry that if Snoke really does have a midichlorian milkshake machine, it will turn out to be a bad and unpopular idea.

Kylo Men wrote:I worry that if Snoke really does have a midichlorian milkshake machine, it will turn out to be a bad and unpopular idea.

@Kylo Men

Agreed, at least if it turns out he's some type of Syndrome type character, I'm gonna start eye rolling so hard over Disney's corporate synergy strategy. Unless whatever's in that shot gives us one of those "Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die" type of moments.

snufkin wrote:

Agreed, at least if it turns out he's some type of Syndrome type character, I'm gonna start eye rolling so hard over Disney's corporate synergy strategy. Unless whatever's in that shot gives us one of those "Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die" type of moments.

@snufkin

I'm intrigued by this but don't know much about your references. What's a Syndrome type character? And corporate synergy strategy?

@reylo1992

Whatever is Snoke preparing Kylo for, it will concern Rey too. They both have the same unique power and potential. In fact, there was perhaps always more potential for light but with a strong hint of darkness, vice versa for Rey. When Rian referred to them as two halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. What if in a creepy way is what Snoke wants. Merge their powers because even villains can be protagonists of their own stories. Adam largely assumed that Kylo doesn't view himself as a villain.

Possible that Kylo might sacriifice himself so Rey can live and fight Snoke until he gets what he wants, but their iunique powers link them, and their destiny is shocking and intertwined.

SheLitAFire wrote:

snufkin wrote:

Agreed, at least if it turns out he's some type of Syndrome type character, I'm gonna start eye rolling so hard over Disney's corporate synergy strategy. Unless whatever's in that shot gives us one of those "Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die" type of moments.

@snufkin

I'm intrigued by this but don't know much about your references. What's a Syndrome type character? And corporate synergy strategy?

@SheLitAFire

God it sounds like a business buzzword term, doesn't it? No I was thinking of the obnoxious villain in The Incredibles, Syndrome, who's the alter ego of a disgruntled fanboy. He's bitter because his hero Luke Skywalker Mr Incredible blows him off and becomes a super villain to exact his revenge. It's a bit of the filmmaker, Brad Bird, taking a pop at himself for being (like Kylo) a fanboy. I was just thinking if Snoke seriously uses some type of super villain device that sucks the Force out of people, it'd almost be a little too close to cliched. Especially when The Incredibles is itself a very tongue-in-cheek spoof on superhero and the old school Sean Connery Bond movies (esp. Dr. No, Goldfinger, and The Spy Who Loved Me).

DarthRen wrote:@reylo1992

Whatever is Snoke preparing Kylo for, it will concern Rey too. They both have the same unique power and potential. In fact, there was perhaps always more potential for light but with a strong hint of darkness, vice versa for Rey. When Rian referred to them as two halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. What if in a creepy way is what Snoke wants. Merge their powers because even villains can be protagonists of their own stories. Adam largely assumed that Kylo doesn't view himself as a villain.

Possible that Kylo might sacriifice himself so Rey can live and fight Snoke until he gets what he wants, but their iunique powers link them, and their destiny is shocking and intertwined.

@DarthRen

Honestly, the raw power thing made me think once again that some sort of prophecy regarding Rey and Kylo may be a thing. It's not coincidence that Rey and Kylo seem to have the same brand of power. And then there's the intertwined destinies mentions, the strange connection between the two that's been cited multiple times and, if we want to dig back into old theorizing, Rey's lightsaber visions where Kylo seemed to see and acknowledge her.

I don't remember where or who, but I remember seeing a theory that Luke may want Rey to get rid of Kylo because a  prophecy exists in which, if they connect, it could have disastrous consequences for the galaxy. Considering the new information, that seems plausible. Though, of course, we know it won't come to that in the end!

ZioRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:@reylo1992

Whatever is Snoke preparing Kylo for, it will concern Rey too. They both have the same unique power and potential. In fact, there was perhaps always more potential for light but with a strong hint of darkness, vice versa for Rey. When Rian referred to them as two halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. What if in a creepy way is what Snoke wants. Merge their powers because even villains can be protagonists of their own stories. Adam largely assumed that Kylo doesn't view himself as a villain.

Possible that Kylo might sacriifice himself so Rey can live and fight Snoke until he gets what he wants, but their iunique powers link them, and their destiny is shocking and intertwined.

@DarthRen

Honestly, the raw power thing made me think once again that some sort of prophecy regarding Rey and Kylo may be a thing. It's not coincidence that Rey and Kylo seem to have the same brand of power. And then there's the intertwined destinies mentions, the strange connection between the two that's been cited multiple times and, if we want to dig back into old theorizing, Rey's lightsaber visions where Kylo seemed to see and acknowledge her.

I don't remember where or who, but I remember seeing a theory that Luke may want Rey to get rid of Kylo because a  prophecy exists in which, if they connect, it could have disastrous consequences for the galaxy. Considering the new information, that seems plausible. Though, of course, we know it won't come to that in the end!

@ZioRen

Is the the Harbinger of Doom theory from the Knights of Rant?

ZioRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:@reylo1992

Whatever is Snoke preparing Kylo for, it will concern Rey too. They both have the same unique power and potential. In fact, there was perhaps always more potential for light but with a strong hint of darkness, vice versa for Rey. When Rian referred to them as two halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. What if in a creepy way is what Snoke wants. Merge their powers because even villains can be protagonists of their own stories. Adam largely assumed that Kylo doesn't view himself as a villain.

Possible that Kylo might sacriifice himself so Rey can live and fight Snoke until he gets what he wants, but their iunique powers link them, and their destiny is shocking and intertwined.

@DarthRen

Honestly, the raw power thing made me think once again that some sort of prophecy regarding Rey and Kylo may be a thing. It's not coincidence that Rey and Kylo seem to have the same brand of power. And then there's the intertwined destinies mentions, the strange connection between the two that's been cited multiple times and, if we want to dig back into old theorizing, Rey's lightsaber visions where Kylo seemed to see and acknowledge her.

I don't remember where or who, but I remember seeing a theory that Luke may want Rey to get rid of Kylo because a  prophecy exists in which, if they connect, it could have disastrous consequences for the galaxy. Considering the new information, that seems plausible. Though, of course, we know it won't come to that in the end!

@ZioRen

Kylo clearly seen her before and whenever someone mentioned "the girl", Kylo was mad and nervous. I think he sensed her in a way, before they even met. Maybe there is some kind of prophecy about the origins of the Force and that's what is Luke digging deeper into. When he sees Rey, he could be scared because she can kill others too, but what if he's scared of something else. Like if this prophecy had an idea back then, found more evidence of it and if Kylo and Rey unites with each other. This could explain Bothan's Spy's implications that Rey does not want to kill Kylo and Luke wants her to. I doubt Luke would suddenly be against redemption, but if he thinks it could save the Galaxy.

Luke wants Jedi to end maybe as part of it but Luke is on this island for a reason as The First Temple of the Jedi must have links to the beginning of the Force and Snoke seems to be targeting Kylo because of it and might even be from that time as some ancient character that has been watching Sith and Jedi fight and fail again and again. Snoke is going his own way.

I always had the impression Luke is on the island because of Snoke and his plans, Snoke has a personal agenda on top of his evil schemes to rule everyone. He's been targeting Vader's grandson, Luke's nephew and son of Leia and Han.

DarthRen wrote:

ZioRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:@reylo1992

Whatever is Snoke preparing Kylo for, it will concern Rey too. They both have the same unique power and potential. In fact, there was perhaps always more potential for light but with a strong hint of darkness, vice versa for Rey. When Rian referred to them as two halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. What if in a creepy way is what Snoke wants. Merge their powers because even villains can be protagonists of their own stories. Adam largely assumed that Kylo doesn't view himself as a villain.

Possible that Kylo might sacriifice himself so Rey can live and fight Snoke until he gets what he wants, but their iunique powers link them, and their destiny is shocking and intertwined.

@DarthRen

Honestly, the raw power thing made me think once again that some sort of prophecy regarding Rey and Kylo may be a thing. It's not coincidence that Rey and Kylo seem to have the same brand of power. And then there's the intertwined destinies mentions, the strange connection between the two that's been cited multiple times and, if we want to dig back into old theorizing, Rey's lightsaber visions where Kylo seemed to see and acknowledge her.

I don't remember where or who, but I remember seeing a theory that Luke may want Rey to get rid of Kylo because a  prophecy exists in which, if they connect, it could have disastrous consequences for the galaxy. Considering the new information, that seems plausible. Though, of course, we know it won't come to that in the end!

@ZioRen

Kylo clearly seen her before and whenever someone mentioned "the girl", Kylo was mad and nervous. I think he sensed her in a way, before they even met. Maybe there is some kind of prophecy about the origins of the Force and that's what is Luke digging deeper into. When he sees Rey, he could be scared because she can kill others too, but what if he's scared of something else. Like if this prophecy had an idea back then, found more evidence of it and if Kylo and Rey unites with each other. This could explain Bothan's Spy's implications that Rey does not want to kill Kylo and Luke wants her to. I doubt Luke would suddenly be against redemption, but if he thinks it could save the Galaxy.

Luke wants Jedi to end maybe as part of it but Luke is on this island for a reason as The First Temple of the Jedi must have links to the beginning of the Force and Snoke seems to be targeting Kylo because of it and might even be from that time as some ancient character that has been watching Sith and Jedi fight and fail again and again. Snoke is going his own way.

I always had the impression Luke is on the island because of Snoke and his plans, Snoke has a personal agenda on top of his evil schemes to rule everyone. He's been targeting Vader's grandson, Luke's nephew and son of Leia and Han.

@DarthRen

If this really is a prophecy sort of thing, then maybe it was very purposeful that Rey was left on Jakku of all planets. Weren't there hints in some novel or such that Jakku blocked the Force in some way? Clearly the planet is special, because everybody keeps ending up there. Perhaps whoever dropped Rey there knew of the prophecy and that Rey was part of it, and was hoping her skills would never manifest because of the nature of the planet and she'd never be found.

I'm still a bit head scratchy about Luke's decision to isolate himself in this context. I would hope that it's because he's searching for some way to stop the "raw power" or Snoke because otherwise, why would he leave such a dangerous, explosive power as Kylo Ren in Snoke's hands? If Kylo's power has the potential to be so disastrous, why would Luke be fine just leaving him out and about in the galaxy with an evil dude for so long while he sits on an island and warns nobody?

And I wonder, if a prophecy is the direction, if Luke always knew of it in some way and maybe knew (or suspected) that Ben Solo was part of it. It would explain why he apparently thought Ben was the "Chosen One". Maybe Luke thought he had what it took to train Ben and divert him off of the disastrous path the prophecy foretold (which seems like a very younger Luke-y mindset). And, in his mind, he got arrogant thinking he could change "fate" and it backfired severely. Thus the cynicism.

Okay I'm just rambling now. I'm theorizing on an hour of sleep.

ZioRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

ZioRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:@reylo1992

Whatever is Snoke preparing Kylo for, it will concern Rey too. They both have the same unique power and potential. In fact, there was perhaps always more potential for light but with a strong hint of darkness, vice versa for Rey. When Rian referred to them as two halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. What if in a creepy way is what Snoke wants. Merge their powers because even villains can be protagonists of their own stories. Adam largely assumed that Kylo doesn't view himself as a villain.

Possible that Kylo might sacriifice himself so Rey can live and fight Snoke until he gets what he wants, but their iunique powers link them, and their destiny is shocking and intertwined.

@DarthRen

Honestly, the raw power thing made me think once again that some sort of prophecy regarding Rey and Kylo may be a thing. It's not coincidence that Rey and Kylo seem to have the same brand of power. And then there's the intertwined destinies mentions, the strange connection between the two that's been cited multiple times and, if we want to dig back into old theorizing, Rey's lightsaber visions where Kylo seemed to see and acknowledge her.

I don't remember where or who, but I remember seeing a theory that Luke may want Rey to get rid of Kylo because a  prophecy exists in which, if they connect, it could have disastrous consequences for the galaxy. Considering the new information, that seems plausible. Though, of course, we know it won't come to that in the end!

@ZioRen

Kylo clearly seen her before and whenever someone mentioned "the girl", Kylo was mad and nervous. I think he sensed her in a way, before they even met. Maybe there is some kind of prophecy about the origins of the Force and that's what is Luke digging deeper into. When he sees Rey, he could be scared because she can kill others too, but what if he's scared of something else. Like if this prophecy had an idea back then, found more evidence of it and if Kylo and Rey unites with each other. This could explain Bothan's Spy's implications that Rey does not want to kill Kylo and Luke wants her to. I doubt Luke would suddenly be against redemption, but if he thinks it could save the Galaxy.

Luke wants Jedi to end maybe as part of it but Luke is on this island for a reason as The First Temple of the Jedi must have links to the beginning of the Force and Snoke seems to be targeting Kylo because of it and might even be from that time as some ancient character that has been watching Sith and Jedi fight and fail again and again. Snoke is going his own way.

I always had the impression Luke is on the island because of Snoke and his plans, Snoke has a personal agenda on top of his evil schemes to rule everyone. He's been targeting Vader's grandson, Luke's nephew and son of Leia and Han.

@DarthRen

If this really is a prophecy sort of thing, then maybe it was very purposeful that Rey was left on Jakku of all planets. Weren't there hints in some novel or such that Jakku blocked the Force in some way? Clearly the planet is special, because everybody keeps ending up there. Perhaps whoever dropped Rey there knew of the prophecy and that Rey was part of it, and was hoping her skills would never manifest because of the nature of the planet and she'd never be found.

I'm still a bit head scratchy about Luke's decision to isolate himself in this context. I would hope that it's because he's searching for some way to stop the "raw power" or Snoke because otherwise, why would he leave such a dangerous, explosive power as Kylo Ren in Snoke's hands? If Kylo's power has the potential to be so disastrous, why would Luke be fine just leaving him out and about in the galaxy with an evil dude for so long while he sits on an island and warns nobody?

And I wonder, if a prophecy is the direction, if Luke always knew of it in some way and maybe knew (or suspected) that Ben Solo was part of it. It would explain why he apparently thought Ben was the "Chosen One". Maybe Luke thought he had what it took to train Ben and divert him off of the disastrous path the prophecy foretold (which seems like a very younger Luke-y mindset). And, in his mind, he got arrogant thinking he could change "fate" and it backfired severely. Thus the cynicism.

Okay I'm just rambling now. I'm theorizing on an hour of sleep.

@ZioRen

Jakku has also symbolic meaning as presence of the dark side is strong there. We have hints that it was key backn in the days of The Empire. I believe we haven't seen the last of Jakku in ST. Snoke could sense many things but Jakku maybe truly has a special relation to the Force.

Luke is probably trying to understand meaning of this raw power and going back to the source of it. He did abandoned everything after Kylo did what he did and Luke in fact went on a journey to search for answers. I think he tried to understand something bigger, something maybe Snoke had in mind all along. Snoke himself is grooming Kylo slowly, he could technically use him much earlier but there is a reason why Snoke is careful. If Luke went after Kylo, who's to say that he could do something about it? Maybe Kylo and Snoke are simply too much even for him or if prophecy needs another one and enters Rey. Maybe it bought him a time to understand things.

I think The Chosen One prophecy upon demonstrating such a raw powers must have convinced him and he was wrong, so clearly Kylo is not the only but it concerns him. Unless why would Snoke did what he did, he must know a lot about it and Kylo is clearly still very valuable to him. Raw powers binds Kylo and Rey together. If this is only about one person whether Kylo or Rey then all the comments from Rian and aspect of duality lost its meaning a bit.

DarthRen wrote:@nite0wl29

If Snoke is about balance and focal point and wants both dark nd light. Why is he trying to surpress Kylo's light side?

Let's remember that their destinies are intertwined and both are halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. Snoke is speaking probably to Kylo or Rey but it doesn't matter because both of them are in it equally. Not just Kylo. In fact we don't know if Snoke didn't targeted Rey too and her parents dumped her on Jakku away from him. He even wanted her to kill Kylo, presumably if it was his voice during their SKB fight. It could be that Rey is getting stronger and Kylo weaker with emotions, because he leans towards light and she leans towards darkness.

The line between good and evil ... light and dark ... Rey and Kylo blurs in this movie.

@DarthRen

I soooo agree with the bolded statement DarthRen! I figure Snoke's plans/motivations are still unknown so I'm probably not going to be able to make much sense out of him.. I noticed this seeming contradiction too! I agree it's possible Snoke has had an involvement with Rey in her history..

I figure the big picture is Rey + Kylo = the balance of light and darkness necessary to wield that spherical weapon (which is found using Luke's special compass)- the weapon will bring balance to the force.
Whatever the heck that means
I think a lot of 'force knowledge' is up for grabs with this TLJ... I wonder what the 'experts' on Collider will do with that.. ahem.. [More misdirection!!!]
I'm hanging in there for the ride.. and assuming I don't have any answers based on what's come before.. because what's coming is new.
I really enjoy hearing people's ideas and exploring while we wait for some answers though
What's snoke's end game in all this? I don't know.. the empire were much easier to understand

Luke's big declaration that it is so much bigger than the light and the darkness is very intriguing!
I'll happily go wherever the makers want to with this. Just give me a happy Rey and Ben ending please!

DeeBee wrote:

DarthRen wrote:@nite0wl29

If Snoke is about balance and focal point and wants both dark nd light. Why is he trying to surpress Kylo's light side?

Let's remember that their destinies are intertwined and both are halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. Snoke is speaking probably to Kylo or Rey but it doesn't matter because both of them are in it equally. Not just Kylo. In fact we don't know if Snoke didn't targeted Rey too and her parents dumped her on Jakku away from him. He even wanted her to kill Kylo, presumably if it was his voice during their SKB fight. It could be that Rey is getting stronger and Kylo weaker with emotions, because he leans towards light and she leans towards darkness.

The line between good and evil ... light and dark ... Rey and Kylo blurs in this movie.

@DarthRen

I soooo agree with the bolded statement DarthRen! I figure Snoke's plans/motivations are still unknown so I'm probably not going to be able to make much sense out of him.. I noticed this seeming contradiction too!
.......

@DeeBee

I have also wondered about that, but frankly I think there is no point trying to find a logical explanation because there isn't one. The [non-logical] explanation is that the plot requires it. Most movies have minor or major logical inconsistencies and plot holes, and TFA (and TLJ) is no exception.

We need Kylo to be special (because he is one of the protagonists and that also make him useful and very valuable to Snoke), so made of both dark and light. Which does not mean anything if you think about it. Does it mean he has 50% dark and 50% light midichlorians?! Makes no sense

And we need the [real] villain trying to supress the light (ie good) side in Kylo so that we have the conflict within Kylo. The villain tries to make him all evil, but there is still good within Kylo.

I am with Han on this. All this light, dark, evil, good, balance is mumbo jumbo and does not make much sense if you start thinking about it. They will just adjust and massage these concepts as the plot requires (even if this creates contradictions), and I am fine with that. That is I accept it is not going to make perfect sense. But the goal justifies the means, so they can come up with whatever excuse they want to bring Kylo and Rey together

So basically the bottom line for me is this:

DeeBee wrote:
I'll happily go wherever the makers want to with this. Just give me a happy Rey and Ben ending please!

I get the feeling we are moving away from the Light and the Dark and more to just - the Force. And the individual must make choices about how they use the Force...for good or ill.

PalmettoBlue wrote:I get the feeling we are moving away from Light and Dark and more to just - the Force. And the individual must makes choices about how they use the Force...for good or ill.

@PalmettoBlue

I'm with ya on this one. There's a lot of things from the old legends novels that they've made canon or have taken inspiration from (i.e. Malachor, Thrawn, Ben (who was Luke's son's name in the EU), Kylo's strong resemblance to Revan) it would be pretty awesome if this is the direction that they're going.

SanghaRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:@nite0wl29

If Snoke is about balance and focal point and wants both dark nd light. Why is he trying to surpress Kylo's light oside?
Let's remember that their destinies are intertwined and both are halves of the protagonist, something, light and dark. Snoke is speaking probably to Kylo or Rey but it doesn't matter because both of them are in it equally. Not just Kylo. In fact we don't know if Snoke didn't targeted Rey too and her parents dumped her on Jakku away from him. He even wanted her to kill Kylo, presumably if it was his voice during their SKB fight. It could be that Rey is getting stronger and Kylo weaker with emotions, because he leans towards light and she leans towards darkness.

The line between good and evil ... light and dark ... Rey and Kylo blurs in this movie.

@DarthRen

Yes, it seems to be a contradiction. I am not sure, but wasn’t the focal point of light and dark only from the novelization? Which would make it only half-canon. I have the feeling this idea was dropped in favor of just raw power. And maybe Snoke indeed needs a dark raw power and a light raw power and when there was an awakening, he felt that it was rather a light inlined one and thought “The time has come, Kylo needs to get full dark. I’ll nudge him towards killing his father.”

@SanghaRen

The more I begin to think about this Force drain theory the more it's starting to make sense to me. Since we're thinking back on legends, Darth Nihilus (lord of hunger) drained the Force from those who were Force sensitive around him because he was nearly killed and weakened. Starkiller Base may be the representation of Kylo's future(draining the son's power, the outer darkness cracks and reveals a newborn son)  but then there needs to be that "bypass the compressor" moment. What if that compressor is Luke? Since he felt horribly responsible for Ben's fall into darkness. And didn't they say this was "Luke's movie" and Leia's was suppose to be episode 9? So with the sacrifice of Luke losing power, that would leave the ultimate showdown Reylo vs Snoke for Episode 9. It's a theory that makes me super nervous, but ultimately could be exciting!

Whether Snoke plans to suck Force powers from Kylo or Rey, maybe both. Luke HAS to be part of this scene. I mean these four are the part of the Force plot, so whatever happens in that throne room, I magine Luke to show up. Luke and Snoke in my opinion do have a connection or knew each other.

DarthRen wrote:Whether Snoke plans to suck Force powers from Kylo or Rey, maybe both. Luke HAS to be part of this scene. I mean these four are the part of the Force plot, so whatever happens in that throne room, I magine Luke to show up. Luke and Snoke in my opinion do have a connection or knew each other.

@DarthRen

If that's the case and they happen to know each other then that could be the meaning behind Luke's mentioning of "raw power"

I've been convinced of "Force vampire Snoke" for a long time, mostly because of his appearance. They've emphasized in other material (the artbook, I think) that they intended to give audiences the impression that Snoke was once something more beautiful. Then there's the fact that he looks more decrepit and wounded than twisted by evil, with all those gnarled pieces and parts that look like they're missing.

From really early on, I had a feeling that part of Snoke's plans was restoring himself in some way by using Kylo, thus the grooming and intense interest. With "raw power" now part of the game, it seems even more likely! My original theory was actually that he wanted to body snatch Kylo eventually, but it seems more plausible that he'd want to suck the power out instead, I guess.

And, in this scenario, once he finds out about Rey, there's no way he'd want to stop at just Kylo. Why, when you can have the power of both?