Discussion: TLJ Movie Spoilers/Rumors

Blackcanary wrote:We've come a long way. Look at this article from freakin' Vanity Fair: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex

@Blackcanary

I was just about to post that! I just stormed down the hallways screaming "FINALLY" in my head about 1000 times. I was expecting articles like this two years ago.

Blackcanary wrote:We've come a long way. Look at this article from freakin' Vanity Fair: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex

@Blackcanary

Yep. Reylos nailed it. TFA was d***s, d***s everywhere! TLJ is cats.

LadyHa wrote:

Blackcanary wrote:We've come a long way. Look at this article from freakin' Vanity Fair: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex

@Blackcanary

I was just about to post that! I just stormed down the hallways screaming "FINALLY" in my head about 1000 times. I was expecting articles like this two years ago.

@LadyHa
Am I the only one who is annoyed when they say Rey was right to leave Ben because she had a galaxy to save? Because that's what his mother did - and we all know how that turned out.

I remember coming online after my second viewing of TFA, watching videos about it on YouTube where all they talked about is how Rey is related to Luke.
Now, the tune has changed and most people seem excited about Reylo.

It's nice to see an article acknowledging the compelling spark and chemistry between Rey and Kylo, but I could do without the tired and inaccurate  50 Shade or Twilight references. When I see stuff like that, I start thinking they don't really get the dynamic. Also, "will they won't they (they won't)" just ugh...

I think I'm just in a salty mood today.

That’s a really good article which doesn’t stop reminding us Disney is doing a Kid franchise that’s why they will play it safe. The article also says they think Rey shouldn’t try to save Kylo again. And it also points out what a let down we don’t have Finn/Poe on screen, man...

Meomeo wrote:That’s a really good article which doesn’t stop reminding us Disney is doing a Kid franchise that’s why they will play it safe. The article also says they think Rey shouldn’t try to save Kylo again. And it also points out what a let down we don’t have Finn/Poe on screen, man...

@Meomeo

I actually agree that Rey should stop trying to save him. It's up to Kylo to enact real change in himself IMO.

Blackcanary wrote:

Meomeo wrote:That’s a really good article which doesn’t stop reminding us Disney is doing a Kid franchise that’s why they will play it safe. The article also says they think Rey shouldn’t try to save Kylo again. And it also points out what a let down we don’t have Finn/Poe on screen, man...

@Meomeo

I actually agree that Rey should stop trying to save him. It's up to Kylo to enact real change in himself IMO.

@Blackcanary

Agreed completely. Rey gave it a shot. If Kylo wants Rey then he is going to have to save himself in the next film.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

LadyHa wrote:

Blackcanary wrote:We've come a long way. Look at this article from freakin' Vanity Fair: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex

@Blackcanary

I was just about to post that! I just stormed down the hallways screaming "FINALLY" in my head about 1000 times. I was expecting articles like this two years ago.

@LadyHa
Am I the only one who is annoyed when they say Rey was right to leave Ben because she had a galaxy to save? Because that's what his mother did - and we all know how that turned out.

@motherofpearl1

I didn't think of that- great point. The article also implies that Reylo is not endgame. (one of the quotes: will they, won’t they (they won’t)). The author is kind of politicizing the relationships in the film, which is not that interesting to me at this point. Baby steps, here. It seems like there is still resistance to taking modern epic romances seriously, hence the need to refer to TwilightShades, because that's many people's only point of reference.

The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

whisperingwillow wrote:

Blackcanary wrote:

Meomeo wrote:That’s a really good article which doesn’t stop reminding us Disney is doing a Kid franchise that’s why they will play it safe. The article also says they think Rey shouldn’t try to save Kylo again. And it also points out what a let down we don’t have Finn/Poe on screen, man...

@Meomeo

I actually agree that Rey should stop trying to save him. It's up to Kylo to enact real change in himself IMO.

@Blackcanary

Agreed completely. Rey gave it a shot. If Kylo wants Rey then he is going to have to save himself in the next film.

@whisperingwillow

I actually think she's already saved him - it was because of Rey he killed Snoke. His torment has increased because she rejected him. Kylo will realise his victory is a hollow one, because at the end of the day all that can bring him peace is Rey.

I can't help myself but this article really makes me sad. Writer also implies in another article that Ben won't survive IX. If it happens, I'm done. I will read every spoiler before the premiere.

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen

This. How many real life victims of trauma have credited their recovery on the support of others. People forget Kylo is an abuse victim. And as such needs the support and encouragement of someone who cares about him to heal. Who other than Rey does he have? His father's gone,his mother has lost hope, his uncle tried to murder him. He has no friends. He only has Rey.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen

This. How many real life victims of trauma have credited their recovery on the support of others. People forget Kylo is an abuse victim. And as such needs the support and encouragement of someone who cares about him to heal. Who other than Rey does he have? His father's gone,his mother has lost hope, his uncle tried to murder him. He has no friends. He only has Rey.

@motherofpearl1

Oh dear, this made me tear up a little.

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen

In a way Kylo redeemed himself in this movie. He is the successful version of Anakin. he saved Rey, turned on Snoke, is in control mints temper tantrum like a rejected lover he is. He did well and has reasons for his actions. Same cannot be said for the rest.

We might see him bringing order and not Snoke's vengeful attitude. He clearly despises stereotypical views of Luke, Snoke's FO, the Resistance, Jedi and Sith. He wants to learn from it and make it better. He needed only someone by his side, his equal who turned his back on him for her reasons.

I'd say he did well. I think he'll get the redemptio nor at least I want to believe it and brings peace to the galaxy.

The way I see it, Disney’s version or shocking is... making audience understand where Kylo Ren comes from, then turn him into a much more complete monster in the final episode and kill him off by some late redemption. So they can sell their new generation of heroic resistance (new pilots, new fighters etc). Honestly I don’t see any light for Kylo at this point. All the good things are being taken away from him. Of course he has his blame but still this is kid movies they’re not going to let Rey stay with the bad guy.
I hope to see how much Poe, Finn and Rose’a dolls will be sold at this point. Especially Poe. That guy is useless and a mess in this movie I wonder if anyone want to see him as a good role model. Ughhh

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen
Unfortunately this is something that happens in a lot of "redemption" stories. Famously Iroh and Zuko in Avatar. After Zuko stabs Aang and the gang in the back (nearly resulting in Aang's death!) and essentially has his uncle imprisoned Iroh refuses to even acknowledge his existence. Iroh spent a good deal of season two attempting to help his nephew, only to see Zuko turn his back on everything as soon as the familial acceptance and honour he craved were within reach. So yes, the second redemption denial is a necessary step. It wasn't that Iroh didn't care about Zuko (or that Luke truly believes Ben is gone... he surely doesn't), but the truth is only Ben can save his own soul. Only he ever could. No matter how relatable Kylo's position is -- no matter how much his family failed him -- only he can rise above it all in the end, forgive and let go. Ironically exactly what he tells Rey to do.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen
Unfortunately this is something that happens in a lot of "redemption" stories. Famously Iroh and Zuko in Avatar. After Zuko stabs Aang and the gang in the back (nearly resulting in Aang's death!) and essentially has his uncle imprisoned Iroh refuses to even acknowledge his existence. Iroh spent a good deal of season two attempting to help his nephew, only to see Zuko turn his back on everything as soon as the familial acceptance and honour he craved were within reach. So yes, the second redemption denial is a necessary step. It wasn't that Iroh didn't care about Zuko (or that Luke truly believes Ben is gone... he surely doesn't), but the truth is only Ben can save his own soul. Only he ever could. No matter how relatable Kylo's position is -- no matter how much his family failed him -- only he can rise above it all in the end, forgive and let go. Ironically exactly what he tells Rey to do.

@FrolickingFizzgig

But even Zuko wasn't completely devoid of reminders about what he wanted in his life when he was in his regression path. He still had Mai, contentious as that relationship was for a point in time.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

LadyHa wrote:

Blackcanary wrote:We've come a long way. Look at this article from freakin' Vanity Fair: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex

@Blackcanary

I was just about to post that! I just stormed down the hallways screaming "FINALLY" in my head about 1000 times. I was expecting articles like this two years ago.

@LadyHa
Am I the only one who is annoyed when they say Rey was right to leave Ben because she had a galaxy to save? Because that's what his mother did - and we all know how that turned out.

@motherofpearl1

Yeah, the article was going well until that point.

I mean, he was a douchebag and she was right (as a lover) to leave him BUUUUT the whole point of the film is that people keep dealing in absolutes instead of f****ing sitting down and talking. And that's why both Kylo and Rey were wrong.

ZioRen wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen
Unfortunately this is something that happens in a lot of "redemption" stories. Famously Iroh and Zuko in Avatar. After Zuko stabs Aang and the gang in the back (nearly resulting in Aang's death!) and essentially has his uncle imprisoned Iroh refuses to even acknowledge his existence. Iroh spent a good deal of season two attempting to help his nephew, only to see Zuko turn his back on everything as soon as the familial acceptance and honour he craved were within reach. So yes, the second redemption denial is a necessary step. It wasn't that Iroh didn't care about Zuko (or that Luke truly believes Ben is gone... he surely doesn't), but the truth is only Ben can save his own soul. Only he ever could. No matter how relatable Kylo's position is -- no matter how much his family failed him -- only he can rise above it all in the end, forgive and let go. Ironically exactly what he tells Rey to do.

@FrolickingFizzgig

But even Zuko wasn't completely devoid of reminders about what he wanted in his life when he was in his regression path. He still had Mai, contentious as that relationship was for a point in time.

@ZioRen
They aren't the same character, though. You can't expect the story to play out the same way.

Mei wasn't really what I could ever call a relevant character. She's just kind of there. The story was all about Aang and Zuko. It's not comparable at all.

I could never say that Zuko didn't find his way back thanks to his own strength. His own desire to prove Iroh and those who turned their backs on him after the events in the catacombs wrong. That rejection (and the realization that he became more miserable than ever despite supposedly having what he wanted) were what really prompted his desire to make another choice.

Kylo is like a child, he must find his place in the world. at every mistake you learns a lesson, this is life.
Luke's phrase is very important because it makes him understand that despite the mistakes that he, as a teacher has done, will remain close to Ben, just like Han. it's just like "even if you make the wrong decision I'm close to you" and when he says "see you later kid" he says it all. Remember the phrase of maz "the belonging you see it's not behind you it is ahead" It also applies to kylo ?

What do you think about it?

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen
Unfortunately this is something that happens in a lot of "redemption" stories. Famously Iroh and Zuko in Avatar. After Zuko stabs Aang and the gang in the back (nearly resulting in Aang's death!) and essentially has his uncle imprisoned Iroh refuses to even acknowledge his existence. Iroh spent a good deal of season two attempting to help his nephew, only to see Zuko turn his back on everything as soon as the familial acceptance and honour he craved were within reach. So yes, the second redemption denial is a necessary step. It wasn't that Iroh didn't care about Zuko (or that Luke truly believes Ben is gone... he surely doesn't), but the truth is only Ben can save his own soul. Only he ever could. No matter how relatable Kylo's position is -- no matter how much his family failed him -- only he can rise above it all in the end, forgive and let go. Ironically exactly what he tells Rey to do.

@FrolickingFizzgig

But even Zuko wasn't completely devoid of reminders about what he wanted in his life when he was in his regression path. He still had Mai, contentious as that relationship was for a point in time.

@ZioRen
They aren't the same character, though. You can't expect the story to play out the same way.

Mei wasn't really what I could ever call a relevant character. She's just kind of there. The story was all about Aang and Zuko. It's not comparable at all.

I could never say that Zuko didn't find his way back thanks to his own strength. His own desire to prove Iroh and those who turned their backs on him after the events in the catacombs wrong. That rejection (and the realization that he became more miserable than ever despite supposedly having what he wanted) were what really prompted his desire to make another choice.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I didn't say they were entirely comparable nor did I ever say they were the same character because they're not, and they have quite different circumstances. In fact, it's what makes the whole deal with Iroh and Zuko a whole different animal than everything with Kylo. Zuko KNEW he had someone who truly loved and supported him in Iroh because Iroh had stood by him for years, guiding him and protecting him. So of course in the end, he couldn't turn his back on Iroh forever even if Iroh seemed to have given up on him. Iroh didn't redeem Zuko, but he was a huge inspiration for Zuko's redemption because he was an undeniable and inescapable reminder of true belonging and inner strength.

Kylo has nothing comparable in his life. No reminder beaten into his head of somebody who believed in him and who he was failing. Luke can't quite be that considering their history, even if he pesters Kylo as a Force ghost. And maybe Leia was supposed to rise to partially play that role in IX, but now she can't. Maybe now that falls to Rey, but will their relatively brief time of connection and understanding be enough if she's still entirely spurning him?

Does anyone else think they will split the final movie into two parts?

ZioRen wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen
Unfortunately this is something that happens in a lot of "redemption" stories. Famously Iroh and Zuko in Avatar. After Zuko stabs Aang and the gang in the back (nearly resulting in Aang's death!) and essentially has his uncle imprisoned Iroh refuses to even acknowledge his existence. Iroh spent a good deal of season two attempting to help his nephew, only to see Zuko turn his back on everything as soon as the familial acceptance and honour he craved were within reach. So yes, the second redemption denial is a necessary step. It wasn't that Iroh didn't care about Zuko (or that Luke truly believes Ben is gone... he surely doesn't), but the truth is only Ben can save his own soul. Only he ever could. No matter how relatable Kylo's position is -- no matter how much his family failed him -- only he can rise above it all in the end, forgive and let go. Ironically exactly what he tells Rey to do.

@FrolickingFizzgig

But even Zuko wasn't completely devoid of reminders about what he wanted in his life when he was in his regression path. He still had Mai, contentious as that relationship was for a point in time.

@ZioRen
They aren't the same character, though. You can't expect the story to play out the same way.

Mei wasn't really what I could ever call a relevant character. She's just kind of there. The story was all about Aang and Zuko. It's not comparable at all.

I could never say that Zuko didn't find his way back thanks to his own strength. His own desire to prove Iroh and those who turned their backs on him after the events in the catacombs wrong. That rejection (and the realization that he became more miserable than ever despite supposedly having what he wanted) were what really prompted his desire to make another choice.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I didn't say they were entirely comparable nor did I ever say they were the same character because they're not, and they have quite different circumstances. In fact, it's what makes the whole deal with Iroh and Zuko a whole different animal than everything with Kylo. Zuko KNEW he had someone who truly loved and supported him in Iroh because Iroh had stood by him for years, guiding him and protecting him. So of course in the end, he couldn't turn his back on Iroh forever even if Iroh seemed to have given up on him. Iroh didn't redeem Zuko, but he was a huge inspiration for Zuko's redemption because he was an undeniable and inescapable reminder of true belonging and inner strength.

Kylo has nothing comparable in his life. No reminder beaten into his head of somebody who believed in him and who he was failing. Luke can't quite be that considering their history, even if he pesters Kylo as a Force ghost. And maybe Leia was supposed to rise to partially play that role in IX, but now she can't. Maybe now that falls to Rey, but will their relatively brief time of connection and understanding be enough if she's still entirely spurning him?

@ZioRen
I'm only making the point that Kylo can only save himself, and IMO, he is further along that path than ever. We'll see how the events of TLJ ultimately changed him in IX. The second redemption denial is just part of that.

What will be will be, ultimately. I have zero doubt that we'll get an "optimistic" conclusion, and Rey and Kylo have to be a big part of that.

ReyofLightSide wrote:Does anyone else think they will split the final movie into two parts?

@ReyofLightSide

At this point, I kinda hope so.