Discussion: TLJ Movie Spoilers/Rumors

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen
Unfortunately this is something that happens in a lot of "redemption" stories. Famously Iroh and Zuko in Avatar. After Zuko stabs Aang and the gang in the back (nearly resulting in Aang's death!) and essentially has his uncle imprisoned Iroh refuses to even acknowledge his existence. Iroh spent a good deal of season two attempting to help his nephew, only to see Zuko turn his back on everything as soon as the familial acceptance and honour he craved were within reach. So yes, the second redemption denial is a necessary step. It wasn't that Iroh didn't care about Zuko (or that Luke truly believes Ben is gone... he surely doesn't), but the truth is only Ben can save his own soul. Only he ever could. No matter how relatable Kylo's position is -- no matter how much his family failed him -- only he can rise above it all in the end, forgive and let go. Ironically exactly what he tells Rey to do.

@FrolickingFizzgig

But even Zuko wasn't completely devoid of reminders about what he wanted in his life when he was in his regression path. He still had Mai, contentious as that relationship was for a point in time.

@ZioRen
They aren't the same character, though. You can't expect the story to play out the same way.

Mei wasn't really what I could ever call a relevant character. She's just kind of there. The story was all about Aang and Zuko. It's not comparable at all.

I could never say that Zuko didn't find his way back thanks to his own strength. His own desire to prove Iroh and those who turned their backs on him after the events in the catacombs wrong. That rejection (and the realization that he became more miserable than ever despite supposedly having what he wanted) were what really prompted his desire to make another choice.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I didn't say they were entirely comparable nor did I ever say they were the same character because they're not, and they have quite different circumstances. In fact, it's what makes the whole deal with Iroh and Zuko a whole different animal than everything with Kylo. Zuko KNEW he had someone who truly loved and supported him in Iroh because Iroh had stood by him for years, guiding him and protecting him. So of course in the end, he couldn't turn his back on Iroh forever even if Iroh seemed to have given up on him. Iroh didn't redeem Zuko, but he was a huge inspiration for Zuko's redemption because he was an undeniable and inescapable reminder of true belonging and inner strength.

Kylo has nothing comparable in his life. No reminder beaten into his head of somebody who believed in him and who he was failing. Luke can't quite be that considering their history, even if he pesters Kylo as a Force ghost. And maybe Leia was supposed to rise to partially play that role in IX, but now she can't. Maybe now that falls to Rey, but will their relatively brief time of connection and understanding be enough if she's still entirely spurning him?

@ZioRen
I'm only making the point that Kylo can only save himself, and IMO, he is further along that path than ever. We'll see how the events of TLJ ultimately changed him in IX. The second redemption denial is just part of that.

What will be will be, ultimately. I have zero doubt that we'll get an "optimistic" conclusion, and Rey and Kylo have to be a big part of that.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree that only he can save himself and even said that in my first post. All I'm saying is that the idea that he should be devoid of any kind of support or catalyst to do so is a stance I find strange.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:Does anyone else think they will split the final movie into two parts?

@ReyofLightSide

At this point, I kinda hope so.

@MeadowofAshes

I don't know if I could take the stress of another cliffhanger, lol.

But if the story needs more time then they should do whatever they need to do.

ReyofLightSide wrote:Does anyone else think they will split the final movie into two parts?

@ReyofLightSide

Absolutely a possibility, infuriating as that may be. Though stretching it out as long as possible does give more hope of a satisfying redemption arc for Kylo, at least. I just hope if they go in that direction, they don't put two years between the movies. 

ZioRen wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:Does anyone else think they will split the final movie into two parts?

@ReyofLightSide

Absolutely, infuriating as that may be. Though stretching it out as long as possible does give more hope of a satisfying redemption arc for Kylo, at least. I just hope if they go in that direction, they don't put two years between the movies. 

@ZioRen

They can do it like Harry Potter The Deathly Hallows part 1 & 2. A lot of the fans would prefer it, following moments post Crait, showing us first days of Supreme Leader Ren and then a time jump after the first part.

I won't lie, I sort of dread a big time jump before IX. Because all I can think is that they'll use it to further establish Kylo in his villainy and add a lot to his current body count.

But I don't see how else they'll have the Resistance build back up again into something that can challenge the First Order.

Hux and Snoke mention having rebellion on a string. Nod to Red String of Fate.

ZioRen wrote:I won't lie, I sort of dread a big time jump before IX. Because all I can think is that they'll use it to further establish Kylo in his villainy and add a lot to his current body count.

But I don't see how else they'll have the Resistance build back up again into something that can challenge the First Order.

@ZioRen

Plus further driving away kylo and Rey from each other, you know quickly she tends to get close to people or could vice versa. Han, Finn, Kylo. I think few months ate least will be the time gap. Also depends on Kylo's vision of ruling, if he even has some.

ZioRen wrote:I won't lie, I sort of dread a big time jump before IX. Because all I can think is that they'll use it to further establish Kylo in his villainy and add a lot to his current body count.

But I don't see how else they'll have the Resistance build back up again into something that can challenge the First Order.

@ZioRen

This is my biggest fear, them expecting us to stomach like 10 years.  However, I don't think they can get away with more than 1 year with Hux ready to overthrow Kylo at any moment.

Moonjump05 wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I won't lie, I sort of dread a big time jump before IX. Because all I can think is that they'll use it to further establish Kylo in his villainy and add a lot to his current body count.

But I don't see how else they'll have the Resistance build back up again into something that can challenge the First Order.

@ZioRen

This is my biggest fear, then expecting us to stomach like 10 years.  However, I don't think they can get away with more than 1 year with Hux ready to overthrow Kylo at any moment.

@Moonjump05

10 years of Kylo and Hux side-by-side. Can't imagine 10 days, not to mention 10 years, 1 year at best because if more like all the work will be undone. I'd like to see Kylo's first weeks in charge. I hope they split the movie like Harry Potter The Deathly Hallows part 1 & 2. Part 1 continuation with Leia's death, what to do next, SL Ren and then time jump at the end.

Moonjump05 wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I won't lie, I sort of dread a big time jump before IX. Because all I can think is that they'll use it to further establish Kylo in his villainy and add a lot to his current body count.

But I don't see how else they'll have the Resistance build back up again into something that can challenge the First Order.

@ZioRen

This is my biggest fear, them expecting us to stomach like 10 years.  However, I don't think they can get away with more than 1 year with Hux ready to overthrow Kylo at any moment.

@Moonjump05

I feel like a big time jump would do more of a disservice to Rey and Finn and their arcs than anyone. What's the point of a coming of age story if we skip forward to when they're more of age?

So, i just saw the movie for the first time and i thought it was awesome. Surpassed all of my expectations. Also, i was especially attentive to those poe, rey interactions that so many were freaking out about and i gotta say, there was absolutely NOTHING there. Don't understand what people really saw. When he woke up after she was tortured, it was just a transitional scene, and he was waking up after being stunned, and the reason he went to the window was because he thought leaving in the transportation ship was not the right thing to do (nothing to do with Rey at ALL). Then when he was looking at Rey in awe, well, who wasn't, she was holding all those boulders in the air while rescuing them. And the last one really baffled me, i mean all they did was saying hi, was the fact Rey was smiling that freaked everyone out? She's always like that when meeting someone new that's friendly. Also, he will most probably be the next leader of the resistance, of course they needed to get them to at least know of each other. Well, now that that's out of the way, let's talk about our 2 crazy kids. I really think that last scene was very telling. I mean, yes, Rey was disappointed in him (i think at that moment he was to), but what i saw in her eyes was not a "I hate you, i don't want to see you again" stare and more along the lines of "this is not the end of us, but you'll have to change a lot if you want me to meet you half way". And i don't think the force bond is gone, i mean she shut the door, what was she gonna do, they were running away. If they wanted us to show that it was not there anymore, it would have ended with Snoke dying (which also shows that Snoke didn't create that bond between them, he only manipulated it)...

Kessel wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:Does anyone else think they will split the final movie into two parts?

@ReyofLightSide

At this point, I kinda hope so.

@MeadowofAshes

I don't know if I could take the stress of another cliffhanger, lol.

But if the story needs more time then they should do whatever they need to do.

@Kessel

I DON'T NEED TO SUFFER LIKE THIS

So, my favorite comical Reylo moments:
-Kylo skidding into the hallway like a Keystone Cop
-Kylo checking himself after thinking Rey shot him
-Kylo refusing to cover himself
-Kylo commanding her to bring Skywalker to him and he sees it doesn't work and is just like, "Yeah, no."

Teo oswald wrote:Kylo is like a child, he must find his place in the world. at every mistake you learns a lesson, this is life.
Luke's phrase is very important because it makes him understand that despite the mistakes that he, as a teacher has done, will remain close to Ben, just like Han. it's just like "even if you make the wrong decision I'm close to you" and when he says "see you later kid" he says it all. Remember the phrase of maz "the belonging you see it's not behind you it is ahead" It also applies to kylo ?

What do you think about it?

@Teo oswald

Thank you for this. I felt it the same way.

Soooo, the next Star Wars Celebration is going to be amazing.

ReyofLightSide wrote:Soooo, the next Star Wars Celebration is going to be amazing.

@ReyofLightSide

Why?

DarthRen wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:Soooo, the next Star Wars Celebration is going to be amazing.

@ReyofLightSide

Why?

@DarthRen

Pure speculation on my part. But I think it is going to be really good now that Reylo is canon.

ReyofLightSide wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:Soooo, the next Star Wars Celebration is going to be amazing.

@ReyofLightSide

Why?

@DarthRen

Pure speculation on my part. But I think it is going to be really good now that Reylo is canon.

@ReyofLightSide

Do you think cast will make an appearance or not? Mark could, John too. Adam is not for this and Daisy will be busy.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

ZioRen wrote:The "Kylo needs to redeem himself thing" is true, but that doesn't mean he should be devoid of a catalyst or support. This is where I get confused with how a lot of people see this, that it's okay for Rey to give up on him and to not help him in the least. 

It was Luke being there and believing in him that finally helped Vader pull himself out of the dark and realize what was more important to him, and what was right. I don't get why it's a popular opinion that Kylo shouldn't get the same. Most people don't make it out of a bad place in their lives without something reminding them of why they should and some sort of support, "deserved" or not.

@ZioRen
Unfortunately this is something that happens in a lot of "redemption" stories. Famously Iroh and Zuko in Avatar. After Zuko stabs Aang and the gang in the back (nearly resulting in Aang's death!) and essentially has his uncle imprisoned Iroh refuses to even acknowledge his existence. Iroh spent a good deal of season two attempting to help his nephew, only to see Zuko turn his back on everything as soon as the familial acceptance and honour he craved were within reach. So yes, the second redemption denial is a necessary step. It wasn't that Iroh didn't care about Zuko (or that Luke truly believes Ben is gone... he surely doesn't), but the truth is only Ben can save his own soul. Only he ever could. No matter how relatable Kylo's position is -- no matter how much his family failed him -- only he can rise above it all in the end, forgive and let go. Ironically exactly what he tells Rey to do.

@FrolickingFizzgig

It's as if he's the only one that cannot do it despite helping others (Rey) with it. So his final step is to help himself. or not. I don't know what LF's gonna do. For all I know they may just end Skywalkers totally and not even with a optimistic ending for the family but an optimistic one for everyone else.

ReyofLightSide wrote:-Kylo commanding her to bring Skywalker to him and he sees it doesn't work and is just like, "Yeah, no."

@ReyofLightSide

Oh wow, I don't remember this. Which scene was this? Was it during the Force bond?

shii405 wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:-Kylo commanding her to bring Skywalker to him and he sees it doesn't work and is just like, "Yeah, no."

@ReyofLightSide

Oh wow, I don't remember this. Which scene was this? Was it during the Force bond?

@shii405

During the first Force bond, he goes right into "Bring me Skywalker!!" and then is sheepish when it doesn't work.

ReyofLightSide wrote:

shii405 wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:-Kylo commanding her to bring Skywalker to him and he sees it doesn't work and is just like, "Yeah, no."

@ReyofLightSide

Oh wow, I don't remember this. Which scene was this? Was it during the Force bond?

@shii405

During the first Force bond, he goes right into "Bring me Skywalker!!" and then is sheepish when it doesn't work.

@ReyofLightSide

What if that was Snoke orchestrating it, he really wanted Skywalker alive and bring him, like the girl because she was the connection to Luke.

EDIT: Just to add, i felt like that Snoke bridging them was the wrong move and gave people perceptions and ideas that Snoke is either manipulating them, so only his work they can communicate or that Kylo is doing it. Few people asked me about it.

The Reylo scenes with a sappy song, I am here for it:

https://youtu.be/C_EYDqHujlI

Edit moved to correct thread to rant