ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 12

IoJovi wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:So, we are going to see Supreme Leader Snoke and his pajamas in person.
(the spoiler from while ago  on imperial guards present somehow confirms it).

And that's it. I must admit I was expecting something juicier.

@Darth_Awakened

Yeah, but it's been juicier than what we have been getting.    At least we now know his height.  

What's this about Snoke in his pj's?  Does he require a warm glass of milk before bed?  

@IoJovi

Snoke's robe (or whatever it is) looks to me like a sort of PJ.
I  assume Snoke is always briefing with Kylo & Hux before breakfast.

EDIT: I like the fact he is a puppet not CGI.

I like the idea of a puppet Snoke. Imo, CGI doesn't have the same presence as a physical entity. I always thought the older movies form the '80's with the the puppets and practical effects always felt more real. If the puppet is done well, it would give Snoke a more impactful and ominous presence.  So, I hope the rumor is true for Snoke.  

I agree with others that the extra "tidbit" that Snoke meets with Kylo, Hux and Phasma sounds like pure speculation, unless MSW has extra info they haven't given yet.

Let's just say that if there is a confrontation between Snoke and Kylo while Hux and Phasma are around, I have a feeling it might be a little bit like this (skip to 1:36):

Kessel89 wrote:I like the idea of a puppet Snoke. Imo, CGI doesn't have the same presence as a physical entity. I always thought the older movies form the '80's with the the puppets and practical effects always felt more real. If the puppet is done well, it would give Snoke a more impactful and ominous presence.  So, I hope the rumor is true for Snoke.  

I agree with others that the extra "tidbit" that Snoke meets with Kylo, Hux and Phasma sounds like pure speculation, unless MSW has extra info they haven't given yet.

@Kessel89

To be fair, when we were first introduced to Palpatine in Empire Strikes Back, he too was a hologram that held little weight as far as intimidation goes. It wasn't until we saw him in the flesh in Return of the Jedi that we received the full scale of the creep factor. I personally love Palpatine as a villain, so in my mind Snoke has pretty large shoes to fill.

The puppet Snoke ties in with what Adam Driver said in a recent interview about them having something physical on set for him to talk to and interact with. He didn't specifically mention Snoke but I'm assuming he was thinking of puppet Snoke because he said he was bad with the green screen stuff and kept looking in the wrong place.

I'm still not thrilled about Snoke being a blend of puppet and CGI. Don't get me wrong, I love puppet characters and Yoda will always be especially dear to my heart, but I need convincing Snoke can be a scary villain. And yes, the house coat, dressing gown thing isn't helping. He reminds me of those old guys who would pop up in smoking jackets in old movies/TV shows!

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren I noticed that language choice too...I don't want to believe msw are being tempted to pretend they know more than they actually do. I like Jason and respect the work msw do. But it might be that they feel under pressure now to provide 'details' for things they don't actually have information on. If they're doing that, they need to be careful because inevitably it will come out that they've got things wrong. But the puppet details seem solid.

@BastilaBey

The puppet detail seems to speak to the fact that it seems like their more concrete "leaks" for the past few months have come from costuming and props.

As far as MSW's confusion over timeline details, I'm starting to get very suspicious that we might see a non-linear timeline in VIII. It doesn't even have to be any thing major--we could have the movie open with the KoR crash on Ahch-To, then jump back in time a few days/weeks to the Luke/Rey scene, cut to the Resistance, cut to Kylo, et al with Snoke, etc.

Then there's also those blips about their being an icy landscape (snowtrooper extra, Iceland shoot) that we don't know where in the heck in the movie it fits in.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren I noticed that language choice too...I don't want to believe msw are being tempted to pretend they know more than they actually do. I like Jason and respect the work msw do. But it might be that they feel under pressure now to provide 'details' for things they don't actually have information on. If they're doing that, they need to be careful because inevitably it will come out that they've got things wrong. But the puppet details seem solid.

@BastilaBey

The puppet detail seems to speak to the fact that it seems like their more concrete "leaks" for the past few months have come from costuming and props.

As far as MSW's confusion over timeline details, I'm starting to get very suspicious that we might see a non-linear timeline in VIII. It doesn't even have to be any thing major--we could have the movie open with the KoR crash on Ahch-To, then jump back in time a few days/weeks to the Luke/Rey scene, cut to the Resistance, cut to Kylo, et al with Snoke, etc.

Then there's also those blips about their being an icy landscape (snowtrooper extra, Iceland shoot) that we don't know where in the heck in the movie it fits in.

@ISeeAnIsland

This has come up before, which would fit with some of Johnson's previous movies. At least with Looper, there are flashbacks and multiple timelines (given in a movie with time travel) until the threads come together in the final act. Or another good example was the 2012 version of Jane Eyre, where instead of following the novel's chronological plot, Jane fleeing Thornfield is the opening event, with the flashbacks of Mrs. Reed's House, Lowwood School, and coming to Thornfield/meeting Rochester are all shown. Again with the threads being woven together to the final act.



If that's the route for how the timelines/stories will be told (versus how the OT is a straight chronological narrative), then it'd show something like the crash at the beginning. But in an actual time narrative, that could've happened later on. What will be interesting will be how the crawl will open up with what information to share. Maybe the opening will be the crash with flashbacks to how he ended up there? Including the FO corporate retreat - either orders from Snoke or running off on his own? I tend to think it'll be orders to eliminate her a la Vader's Skype conference with the Emperor in ESB because the beats are used again in TFA for Snoke's introduction.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren I noticed that language choice too...I don't want to believe msw are being tempted to pretend they know more than they actually do. I like Jason and respect the work msw do. But it might be that they feel under pressure now to provide 'details' for things they don't actually have information on. If they're doing that, they need to be careful because inevitably it will come out that they've got things wrong. But the puppet details seem solid.

@BastilaBey

The puppet detail seems to speak to the fact that it seems like their more concrete "leaks" for the past few months have come from costuming and props.

As far as MSW's confusion over timeline details, I'm starting to get very suspicious that we might see a non-linear timeline in VIII. It doesn't even have to be any thing major--we could have the movie open with the KoR crash on Ahch-To, then jump back in time a few days/weeks to the Luke/Rey scene, cut to the Resistance, cut to Kylo, et al with Snoke, etc.

Then there's also those blips about their being an icy landscape (snowtrooper extra, Iceland shoot) that we don't know where in the heck in the movie it fits in.

@ISeeAnIsland

Indeed. And who knows, we might even see the "Snoke with a young Ben" scene that was supposed to be in TFA at some point.

Kessel89 wrote:I like the idea of a puppet Snoke. Imo, CGI doesn't have the same presence as a physical entity. I always thought the older movies form the '80's with the the puppets and practical effects always felt more real. If the puppet is done well, it would give Snoke a more impactful and ominous presence.  So, I hope the rumor is true for Snoke.  

I agree with others that the extra "tidbit" that Snoke meets with Kylo, Hux and Phasma sounds like pure speculation, unless MSW has extra info they haven't given yet.

@Kessel89

I agree that the Kylo, Hux, Phasma tidbit sounds like speculation. But, to play devil's advocate, some sort of scene like that at the beginning would fit with that tweet from Pablo a while back about how we can expect Kylo to have a scar because Hux was an a** and didn't get him into a bacta tank quickly enough.

Omg it's so obvious lmao

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren I noticed that language choice too...I don't want to believe msw are being tempted to pretend they know more than they actually do. I like Jason and respect the work msw do. But it might be that they feel under pressure now to provide 'details' for things they don't actually have information on. If they're doing that, they need to be careful because inevitably it will come out that they've got things wrong. But the puppet details seem solid.

@BastilaBey

The puppet detail seems to speak to the fact that it seems like their more concrete "leaks" for the past few months have come from costuming and props.

As far as MSW's confusion over timeline details, I'm starting to get very suspicious that we might see a non-linear timeline in VIII. It doesn't even have to be any thing major--we could have the movie open with the KoR crash on Ahch-To, then jump back in time a few days/weeks to the Luke/Rey scene, cut to the Resistance, cut to Kylo, et al with Snoke, etc.

Then there's also those blips about their being an icy landscape (snowtrooper extra, Iceland shoot) that we don't know where in the heck in the movie it fits in.

@ISeeAnIsland

Indeed. And who knows, we might even see the "Snoke with a young Ben" scene that was supposed to be in TFA at some point.

@Darth Dingbat

We do know that we're getting a flashback/vision sequence involving what happened at Luke's temple, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that we might be getting that Snoke with young Ben sequence also surfacing in VIII.

I keep forgetting about Iceland and the snowtroopers - maybe it's due to the fact I'have not any idea where that would fit.
Maybe it's Snoke's lair after all.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The puppet Snoke ties in with what Adam Driver said in a recent interview about them having something physical on set for him to talk to and interact with. He didn't specifically mention Snoke but I'm assuming he was thinking of puppet Snoke because he said he was bad with the green screen stuff and kept looking in the wrong place.

I'm still not thrilled about Snoke being a blend of puppet and CGI. Don't get me wrong, I love puppet characters and Yoda will always be especially dear to my heart, but I need convincing Snoke can be a scary villain. And yes, the house coat, dressing gown thing isn't helping. He reminds me of those old guys who would pop up in smoking jackets in old movies/TV shows!

@Mrs Ben Solo

I remember that interview, and at the time, I had just assumed that he was talking about the much-rumored Yoda puppet. But a Snoke puppet makes an awful lot of sense.

One thing is for sure: I'll keep my eyes open next week when I see RO. Whilst the Iceland planet in VIII could be any planet - SKB was in Iceland too, after all - it seems like too much of a coincidence that the VIII crew were filming in exactly the same area where the RO flashbacks were filmed.

Sort of spoilers for Catalyst/RO below (little more than a planet name, basically, but still):

Spoiler:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren I noticed that language choice too...I don't want to believe msw are being tempted to pretend they know more than they actually do. I like Jason and respect the work msw do. But it might be that they feel under pressure now to provide 'details' for things they don't actually have information on. If they're doing that, they need to be careful because inevitably it will come out that they've got things wrong. But the puppet details seem solid.

@BastilaBey

The puppet detail seems to speak to the fact that it seems like their more concrete "leaks" for the past few months have come from costuming and props.

As far as MSW's confusion over timeline details, I'm starting to get very suspicious that we might see a non-linear timeline in VIII. It doesn't even have to be any thing major--we could have the movie open with the KoR crash on Ahch-To, then jump back in time a few days/weeks to the Luke/Rey scene, cut to the Resistance, cut to Kylo, et al with Snoke, etc.

Then there's also those blips about their being an icy landscape (snowtrooper extra, Iceland shoot) that we don't know where in the heck in the movie it fits in.

@ISeeAnIsland

Indeed. And who knows, we might even see the "Snoke with a young Ben" scene that was supposed to be in TFA at some point.

@Darth Dingbat

We do know that we're getting a flashback/vision sequence involving what happened at Luke's temple, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that we might be getting that Snoke with young Ben sequence also surfacing in VIII.

@ISeeAnIsland

I'd thought the same thing. If they're taking the route of showing what happened to him, then that would have to also account for any potential Snoke appearances. If Leia has said on record that Snoke engineered what happened to Ben, then they have to show that. Even if it's part of any flashbacks or if the "Rey sees something in his mind" rumor turns out to be true. Of course, the thing to keep in mind with any rumors/spoilers is that just because something is filmed doesn't mean that it'll make the final cut.

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren I noticed that language choice too...I don't want to believe msw are being tempted to pretend they know more than they actually do. I like Jason and respect the work msw do. But it might be that they feel under pressure now to provide 'details' for things they don't actually have information on. If they're doing that, they need to be careful because inevitably it will come out that they've got things wrong. But the puppet details seem solid.

@BastilaBey

The puppet detail seems to speak to the fact that it seems like their more concrete "leaks" for the past few months have come from costuming and props.

As far as MSW's confusion over timeline details, I'm starting to get very suspicious that we might see a non-linear timeline in VIII. It doesn't even have to be any thing major--we could have the movie open with the KoR crash on Ahch-To, then jump back in time a few days/weeks to the Luke/Rey scene, cut to the Resistance, cut to Kylo, et al with Snoke, etc.

Then there's also those blips about their being an icy landscape (snowtrooper extra, Iceland shoot) that we don't know where in the heck in the movie it fits in.

@ISeeAnIsland

Indeed. And who knows, we might even see the "Snoke with a young Ben" scene that was supposed to be in TFA at some point.

@Darth Dingbat

We do know that we're getting a flashback/vision sequence involving what happened at Luke's temple, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that we might be getting that Snoke with young Ben sequence also surfacing in VIII.

@ISeeAnIsland

I'd thought the same thing. If they're taking the route of showing what happened to him, then that would have to also account for any potential Snoke appearances. If Leia has said on record that Snoke engineered what happened to Ben, then they have to show that. Even if it's part of any flashbacks or if the "Rey sees something in his mind" rumor turns out to be true. Of course, the thing to keep in mind with any rumors/spoilers is that just because something is filmed doesn't mean that it'll make the final cut.

@snufkin

One thing that's giving me a bit of a disconnect with this new rumor is if Snoke really is that creepy in person, how the heck was he allowed to be that physically close to Ben as a young child (assuming that the cut scene of a young Ben with Snoke is still canon)?

There is leaked Rogue One soundtrack tracklist on the internet. If this leak is true then one of the track's tilte is intriguing. Could be connected with the planet you mention, @Darth Dingbat.

Geralt_Riv wrote:There is leaked Rogue One soundtrack tracklist on the internet. If this leak is true then one of the track's tilte is intriguing. Could be connected with the planet you mention, @Darth Dingbat.

@Geralt_Riv

Link?? Pretty please?

ETA: Ah, found it on Reddit! Let's see...

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Geralt_Riv wrote:There is leaked Rogue One soundtrack tracklist on the internet. If this leak is true then one of the track's tilte is intriguing. Could be connected with the planet you mention, @Darth Dingbat.

@Geralt_Riv

Link?? Pretty please?

ETA: Ah, found it on Reddit! Let's see...

@Darth Dingbat

The last one on the list.
EDIT: It's connected with one of the things from TFA novelization.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

One thing that's giving me a bit of a disconnect with this new rumor is if Snoke really is that creepy in person, how the heck was he allowed to be that physically close to Ben as a young child (assuming that the cut scene of a young Ben with Snoke is still canon)?

@ISeeAnIsland

It'll be interesting to see if that was a scene that was removed outright or just deferred to later in the story when it would have more impact. There's enough hints dropped that he knew both Luke and Leia and if ya'lls interpretation of Aftermath is right, he was around early enough to have kept an eye on Leia once she got pregnant. If Ben was with her most of his childhood in the chaos of forming a new government, then it figures that Snoke would at least turn up under the guise of somebody involved with that process. He may have had his eye on Ben the entire time as a potential enemy and the Vader outing was a stroke of good luck to go after him.

Irina de France wrote:Let's just say that if there is a confrontation between Snoke and Kylo while Hux and Phasma are around, I have a feeling it might be a little bit like this (skip to 1:36):

@Irina de France

How strange! You know, I have been thinking exactly about it today! Not how Kylo got the scar but  about the reason why Kylo couldn't leave the FO even if he would like to. He reminded me of Zuko because he can't go home until he has found the Avatar, which makes him obsessed with it and lead him to frustration and tantrums (sounds like someone we know)  

I have been thinking about it first because of the parallels that I noticed with E.T. the Extraterrestial. E.T. becomes obssesse with coming home but can't do it without Elliott's help. Then, I had written a post about the possibility that Kylo may have joined the F.O. because he had no other choice than to do so, leading him to make some deal with Snoke the same way Belle had to make some deal with the Beast to ensure her father's life.

Then, I thought about this "It is you" moment, taking account that J.J. Abrams stated that Kylo & Rey had never met. If Kylo had really no previous attachment to Rey, why does he react like he does while seeing her grabing the lightsaber? Does it mean that he's already aware that she's going to be his salvation?

And then, I came to this speculation: we all say that Rey will save Kylo from the dark side, but what if is it Kylo aleardy knows that? In BatB, the Beast knows that the only way he can free himself from the curse is to love and be loved by a girl? What if in Kylo's case, finding Rey would be part of some deal with Snoke, i.e. he'll be free only after he finds some specific girl that Snoke wants to get? So what if Snoke was actually obsessed with finding Rey and uses her to maintain Kylo under his grip?


I. Why does the lightsaber call to Rey?

As I have already written in so many posts, I believe Ben to be the last owner of the lightsaber. There is one thing that surprises a lot: why would Ben's lightsaber would drawn her by using her child's voice screaming "No!Come back!"" and would show her then her younger self being dropped in Jakku if she's not supposed to have neither nor the Skywalkers before? Why would the lightsaber show her her past if Ben isn't supposed to be part of her past? My guess is that the lightsaber probably shows some of Kylo's obsessions, what thoughts come regularly through his mind.  My guess is that Kylo may have had visions of young Rey being dropped  on Jakku.

II. What girl?

Assuming that Kylo's mission for Snoke is to find Rey, his reaction to Mikata would make sense. If his only clue about the girl to find is that she was dropped on some sandy planet, it may have thought that it was a good trail.

III. Kylo's behavior on Takodana indicates that he is after a very specific person:

Halting an arm's length away, he studied her face from behind his mask. When he finally spoke, he sounded at once impressed and surprised. "You would kill me. Knowing nothing about me."
Finding that her mouth and lips worked, she replied defiantly. "Why wouldn't I kill you? I know about the First Order."
"I would say otherwise. But that is a small thing. Simple ignorances are easily remedied." As he spoke, he walked slowly around her paralyzed body.
Frightened, she tried to follow him with her eyes, but her head would not turn. "So afraid," he murmured. "Yet I should be the one who should be scared. You shot first. You speak of the Order as if it were barbaric. And yet, it is I who was forced to defend myself against you."
[snip]
"Something." He sounded mystified. "There is something... who are you?"
"Is it true, then? You're nothing special after all? You're just a Jakku scavenger?"

1. He chooses to go after the girl instead of the droid, turning his head abrutly and moving immediately toward the direction indicated by the stormtrooper in the novelization

2. Movie: "The girl I've heard so muc about" ==> Actually, he's  supposed to have heard only twice about her but it sounds as if he was talked a lot about her

3. Novelization: "He studied her face from behind his mask" ==> One could say that it's normal that he takes some time to study the face of his prey but what if he had some reason to do so?

4. Novelization: "he sounded [...] surprised" ==> why would he be surprised that she wants to kill him, because after all, they're supposed to be ennemies, right?

5. Novelization: "You would kill me, knowing nothing about me!" ==> The novelizations says Kylo is impressed by what Rey did: killing someone knowing nothing about this person doesn't look like the Jedi way of doing. Could it mean that he's impressed because she already shows some darkness and surprised because she's not supposed to be with the Resistance?

6. Novelization: "Simple ignorances are easily remedied" ==> Again, what does Kylo have in mind when he says? What does he know about the person he's looking for that would make him answer such thing to Rey after she says she knows about the F.O.

7. Novelization: "Something...there is something! [...] Who are you?" ==> It's obvious that Kylo wants to know about her identity

8. Novelization: "Is it true then? You're just a scavenger?" ==> The novelization precises that he sounds disappointed. Why the hell would he be disappointed to find out that she's nothing special? What is he expecting?

To finish, bridal-carry her to his ship by himself to make sure that she's under his protection

III. Kylo Ren's attitude in the interrogation scene confirms that he's after someone specific

1. "Is it true?" he finally asked. You're just a scavenger? ==> Second time that he asks her about her identity

2. "Ah! - he thought to hinself - something there of interest! Not the image of the map - that would take another moment - but definitely something worth investigating" ==> what is this something there of interest that has nothing to do with the map but that he wants so much to investigate?

3. The novelization makes it clear that Kylo encounters a barrier that has obviously nothing to do with Rey's resitance but undertones that  his probe goes nowhere as if it was simply blank

IV. Snoke and Kylo Ren make me thing that it's no coincidence that Kylo talked about the girl to Snoke

"This scavenger - this girl - resisted you?"
"That's all she is, yes. A scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku. Completely untrained, but strong with the Force. Stronger than she knows."
"You have compassion for her."
"No-never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?"
"Kylo Ren. It appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me"

1. Novelization: "That's all she is!" ==> why does Kylo feel the need to precise that being a scavenger is all what she's ? He could simply say that she's strong with the Force? Could it mean that Snoke could have expected something else?

2. Movie: "If what you say about this girl is true, bring her to me!" ==> Obviously, Snoke wants to see the girl because she's strong with the Force, perhaps torture her if she's not what he expects?

V. The snow fight makes it clear that Kylo had no other choice but to try to earn Rey's confidence, but what for?

1. It is You!

Taken aback, he whirled - to see the weapon land in the hand of a girl standing by a tree. Rey appeared equally shocked that her reach for the device had exceed his. She gazed down at the weapon now resting in her grip.
"It IS you," Ren murmured.
His words unsettled her: Not for the first time, he seemed to know more about her than she did about herself.


==> Has Kylo recognized the girl he was searching for? What does he know about her that she doesn't?

2. Even if Kylo has some infatuation with Rey, it's hard to understand why he's so "beseeching and insistent" while making his proposal and why he so blindly shows her the ways of the Force, leading him to his defeat

Ren held his lightsaber, poised to strike. "I could kill you right now. But there is another way." Breathing hard, Rey looked up in disgust at the man looming above her. "You're a monster."
"No. You need a teacher." He was beseeching and insistent all at once. "I can show you the ways of the Force.


3. Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick.
She recoiled from it. From the dark side.

==> The novelization makes it clear that Snoke may be the voice inside Rey's head, which makes sense since Kylo sort of transfered his energy through her while showing her the ways of the Force. If Han was right, Snoke wanted to crush Kylo after he gets what he wants: does it mean that having Rey by his side was his plan from the very beginning
==> Han to Ben: "Snoke is using you for your powers! When he gets, what he wants, he'll crush you!" ==> Does is confirm that Rey is what Snoke wants?

4. "Bring me Kylo Ren...He may have been right about the girl" ==> this would confirm that Kylo said something about Rey that wasn't showed in the film and not told in the novelization

So what if Kylo's mission will be to go on Achch-To to bring Rey to Snoke because it was always his mission, from the very beginning putting him in some impossible dilemma when their feelings evolve: If I don't bring her to Snoke, I can never free myself from the deal and go home? If I bring her to Snoke, I betray her and will never see her again?

We already discussed a lot on this forum about Kylo possibly betraying Rey as some cause to Rey being "emotionally hurt". But what if Kylo hasn't any other choice than accomplishing Snoke's wishes because he made some unbreakable deal or was the victim of some unbreakable deal? There are so many parallels between Kylo and Snape: the decisive thing that led Snape to kill Dumbledore was the fact that he had made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa Malefoy which could only be solved wth his death or Dumbledore's. I can perfectly imagine Kylo being under that kind of curse with Rey being the only mean to escape that but finally not the way he expected she would. And,  the most of the Disney romance experience betrayal at some point or at least the revelation of some unbearable truth. What's more, it also occurs that some character is given by the villain some mission to fulfill but can't bring hinself to do it because feelings toward the hero evolved or whatever

VI. "O Romeo, Romeo! Wherefore art thou Romeo? Deny thy father and refuse thy name. Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,. And I'll no longer be a Capulet"[/u[u]]

Kylo and Rey are Anakin & Padme n Reverse. Anakin & Padme were considered as Space Romeo & Juliet. However , they didn't become t lovers despite their family hatred. What if Kylo and Rey would take more after Romeo & Juliet after all?

1. Why would Snoke want so much  to have Rey by his side if she isn't supposed to have some darkness deep inside her?

2. Lor San Tekka: "You cannot deny the truth that is your family" - Kylo Ren: "You're so right!" ==> What does Kylo mean when he answers "you're so right!"? Is it really about Darth Vader or about someone who is desperately trying to find his way home but knows he can't until he hasn't fulfilled his mission to free himself


3. I already pointed out that the bridge scene as a callback to Romeo & Juliet's dialog: what if Kylo - by choosing Snoke as a father and denying his birth father paradoxically made a step closer to Rey because she belongs to the dark side the same way Juliet belongs to the Capulet?  

Providing that Rey would belong to the dark side and that she was left on Jakku at the age of five - much earlier before Ben actually turned according to Bloodline - what if Snoke would have cursed the Skywalker family because he knew Luke to be responsible for her parent's death and her own death? What if he cursed Ben for some revenge against the Light side and specifically the Skywalker family? What if Ben was left with no other choice to join the F.O. or die because of what happened to Rey's family? And what if Ben was aware that the little girl actually wasn't killed but only dropped on a desert planet, with Snoke "promising" to let him go only if he finds the girl? This could explain why he's so eager to find her, why he's so desperate to find Luke and why Luke feel so guilty. Let's keep in mind that Kylo is very focused on finding Luke (I want that map!" untik Rey shows up. Then , finding her identity and getting her at any cost becomes strangely more important as if both searches were connected. : does it mean that Luke could have been Kylo's only way only way to know about where she was? Let's keep in mind that E.T's most important line is "E.T. phone home" with Gertie saying that E.T. wants to call somebody. He may have tried  to find Luke in order to fulfill his mission and have the possibility to break the spell. Let's also keep in mind that Rey didn't grow up on Jakku with her mother like Anakin or at least some family like Luke: she was left under the "care" of Unkar Plutt, the guy that the novelization describes like a sort of rappey guy "his eyes looking all over her" and threatening to make her "provide enterntainement to the whole galaxy". It's obvious that the person who dropped didn't want her to be found and didn't really care that she would grow in safety.  I don't want to say that Luke may be a vey bad guy but he may have thought that Rey would become a big threat to the universe, not being aware that this would put his own nephew in danger.

Pure speculation of course buit I would find it really interesting to see how Kylo would deal with it, if he is really faced with such big dilemma. I imagine well how much time and energy he would have spent to find the girl, thinking she's his only way to free himself fron Snoke and finally discovering that she would be his salvation for another reason

Geralt_Riv wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Geralt_Riv wrote:There is leaked Rogue One soundtrack tracklist on the internet. If this leak is true then one of the track's tilte is intriguing. Could be connected with the planet you mention, @Darth Dingbat.

@Geralt_Riv

Link?? Pretty please?

ETA: Ah, found it on Reddit! Let's see...

@Darth Dingbat

The last one on the list.
EDIT: It's connected with one of the things from TFA novelization.

@Geralt_Riv

Huh and #17 is interesting because we have somebody who's very much has some Daddy Issues, including trying to prove that he's not like his father.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren I noticed that language choice too...I don't want to believe msw are being tempted to pretend they know more than they actually do. I like Jason and respect the work msw do. But it might be that they feel under pressure now to provide 'details' for things they don't actually have information on. If they're doing that, they need to be careful because inevitably it will come out that they've got things wrong. But the puppet details seem solid.

@BastilaBey

The puppet detail seems to speak to the fact that it seems like their more concrete "leaks" for the past few months have come from costuming and props.

As far as MSW's confusion over timeline details, I'm starting to get very suspicious that we might see a non-linear timeline in VIII. It doesn't even have to be any thing major--we could have the movie open with the KoR crash on Ahch-To, then jump back in time a few days/weeks to the Luke/Rey scene, cut to the Resistance, cut to Kylo, et al with Snoke, etc.

Then there's also those blips about their being an icy landscape (snowtrooper extra, Iceland shoot) that we don't know where in the heck in the movie it fits in.

@ISeeAnIsland

Indeed. And who knows, we might even see the "Snoke with a young Ben" scene that was supposed to be in TFA at some point.

@Darth Dingbat

We do know that we're getting a flashback/vision sequence involving what happened at Luke's temple, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that we might be getting that Snoke with young Ben sequence also surfacing in VIII.

@ISeeAnIsland

I'd thought the same thing. If they're taking the route of showing what happened to him, then that would have to also account for any potential Snoke appearances. If Leia has said on record that Snoke engineered what happened to Ben, then they have to show that. Even if it's part of any flashbacks or if the "Rey sees something in his mind" rumor turns out to be true.  Of course, the thing to keep in mind with any rumors/spoilers is that just because something is filmed doesn't mean that it'll make the final cut.

@snufkin

One thing that's giving me a bit of a disconnect with this new rumor is if Snoke really is that creepy in person, how the heck was he allowed to be that physically close to Ben as a young child (assuming that the cut scene of a young Ben with Snoke is still canon)?

@ISeeAnIsland

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@zioren I noticed that language choice too...I don't want to believe msw are being tempted to pretend they know more than they actually do. I like Jason and respect the work msw do. But it might be that they feel under pressure now to provide 'details' for things they don't actually have information on. If they're doing that, they need to be careful because inevitably it will come out that they've got things wrong. But the puppet details seem solid.

@BastilaBey

The puppet detail seems to speak to the fact that it seems like their more concrete "leaks" for the past few months have come from costuming and props.

As far as MSW's confusion over timeline details, I'm starting to get very suspicious that we might see a non-linear timeline in VIII. It doesn't even have to be any thing major--we could have the movie open with the KoR crash on Ahch-To, then jump back in time a few days/weeks to the Luke/Rey scene, cut to the Resistance, cut to Kylo, et al with Snoke, etc.

Then there's also those blips about their being an icy landscape (snowtrooper extra, Iceland shoot) that we don't know where in the heck in the movie it fits in.

@ISeeAnIsland

Indeed. And who knows, we might even see the "Snoke with a young Ben" scene that was supposed to be in TFA at some point.

@Darth Dingbat

We do know that we're getting a flashback/vision sequence involving what happened at Luke's temple, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that we might be getting that Snoke with young Ben sequence also surfacing in VIII.

@ISeeAnIsland

I'd thought the same thing. If they're taking the route of showing what happened to him, then that would have to also account for any potential Snoke appearances. If Leia has said on record that Snoke engineered what happened to Ben, then they have to show that. Even if it's part of any flashbacks or if the "Rey sees something in his mind" rumor turns out to be true.  Of course, the thing to keep in mind with any rumors/spoilers is that just because something is filmed doesn't mean that it'll make the final cut.

@snufkin

One thing that's giving me a bit of a disconnect with this new rumor is if Snoke really is that creepy in person, how the heck was he allowed to be that physically close to Ben as a young child (assuming that the cut scene of a young Ben with Snoke is still canon)?

@ISeeAnIsland

Don't know but it seems that he and Leia knew each other quite well. In the novelization, Snoke says: your allegiance is not only to Skywalker. Leia..." and then Kylo cuts and swer is allegiance is to him. Perhaps Snoke was going to say Leia Organa but perhaps he was familiar with her enough to call her by her name. And Han and Leia seem to know who Snoke is. As for Snoke being around Ben from an early age, well Palpatine did have the power to hide his real appearance and Force signature.

What raises the most questions by me about me is: how is he supposed to have watched the Empire rise and fall? More important: how is he supposed to know that Vader chose not to kill his son knowing that the Death Star was completely destroyed and tha Sidious, Vader and Luke were supposed to be all alone? How is he supposed to know anyway that Vader and Luke were related if the Skywalker decided to keep this connection secret until it became public in Bloodline? Then how could he know that Ben would be Vader's grandson and born equally good and bad unless he was either very close with Palpatine himself and/or managed to be very closed with the Skywalkers?

reylo1992 wrote:

*snipped for the sake of scrolling*

Don't know but it seems that he and Leia knew each other quite well. In the novelization, Snoke says: your allegiance is not only to Skywalker. Leia..." and then Kylo cuts and swer is allegiance is to him. Perhaps Snoke was going to say Leia Organa but perhaps he was familiar with her enough to call her by her name. And Han and Leia seem to know who Snoke is. As for Snoke being around Ben from an early age, well Palpatine did have the power to hide his real appearance and Force signature.

What raises the most questions by me about me is: how is he supposed to have watched the Empire rise and fall? More important: how is he supposed to know that Vader chose not to kill his son knowing that the Death Star was completely destroyed and tha Sidious, Vader and Luke were supposed to be all alone? How is he supposed to know anyway that Vader and Luke were related if the Skywalker decided to keep this connection secret until it became public in Bloodline? Then how could he know that Ben would be Vader's grandson and born equally good and bad unless he was either very close with Palpatine himself and/or managed to be very closed with the Skywalkers?

@reylo1992

All of these questions can be answered fairly easily if there's a Gallius Rax-Snoke connection, as many suspect. We already know that Rax was one of Palpatine's closest confidantes, according to Life Debt. Here are a few possible explanations:

* It's reasonable to assume that Rax would have known that Luke Skywalker was Vader's son, given his connection to Palpatine. If Snoke had a connection to Rax (or was part of that same inner circle), Snoke would know, too.
* Snoke would know about Ben being Vader's grandson using the same logic--that Rax/Palpatine connection. It even sounds like things might be getting set up in the upcoming Empire's End book for Ben to have been born around the time of the Battle of Jakku. Depending on who Snoke is, he may have been around at the time of Ben's birth.
* Unless there was a live video feed or something for that final fight between Luke and Vader, then it does sound like Snoke had to have been close to the Skywalker family at some point. Luke wouldn't have even had to tell Snoke that Vader was his father; we all know that Luke (at least at the time of Bloodline) had a very warm and fuzzy view of Vader's redemption. If Snoke was a trusted member of Luke's inner circle, perhaps Luke mentioned it at some point.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

*snipped for the sake of scrolling*

Don't know but it seems that he and Leia knew each other quite well. In the novelization, Snoke says: your allegiance is not only to Skywalker. Leia..." and then Kylo cuts and swer is allegiance is to him. Perhaps Snoke was going to say Leia Organa but perhaps he was familiar with her enough to call her by her name. And Han and Leia seem to know who Snoke is. As for Snoke being around Ben from an early age, well Palpatine did have the power to hide his real appearance and Force signature.

What raises the most questions by me about me is: how is he supposed to have watched the Empire rise and fall? More important: how is he supposed to know that Vader chose not to kill his son knowing that the Death Star was completely destroyed and tha Sidious, Vader and Luke were supposed to be all alone? How is he supposed to know anyway that Vader and Luke were related if the Skywalker decided to keep this connection secret until it became public in Bloodline? Then how could he know that Ben would be Vader's grandson and born equally good and bad unless he was either very close with Palpatine himself and/or managed to be very closed with the Skywalkers?

@reylo1992

All of these questions can be answered fairly easily if there's a Gallius Rax-Snoke connection, as many suspect. We already know that Rax was one of Palpatine's closest confidantes, according to Life Debt. Here are a few possible explanations:

* It's reasonable to assume that Rax would have known that Luke Skywalker was Vader's son, given his connection to Palpatine. If Snoke had a connection to Rax (or was part of that same inner circle), Snoke would know, too.
* Snoke would know about Ben being Vader's grandson using the same logic--that Rax/Palpatine connection. It even sounds like things might be getting set up in the upcoming Empire's End book for Ben to have been born around the time of the Battle of Jakku. Depending on who Snoke is, he may have been around at the time of Ben's birth.
* Unless there was a live video feed or something for that final fight between Luke and Vader, then it does sound like Snoke had to have been close to the Skywalker family at some point. Luke wouldn't have even had to tell Snoke that Vader was his father; we all know that Luke (at least at the time of Bloodline) had a very warm and fuzzy view of Vader's redemption. If Snoke was a trusted member of Luke's inner circle, perhaps Luke mentioned it at some point.

@ISeeAnIsland

One thing that's at least clear in TFA, Snoke was playing both sides starting from the end of the war, start of the NR. Meaning he positioned himself to have access to both factions. Question is whether he was acting in the interest of the FO/Imperial Remnants all along. Or if he was playing to see which side would best enable whatever plan he had going on. But operating on both sides brings into the play that neither side was operating with clean hands in the post war envioronment.

This is also why I've thought that there has to be some kind of connection between him and whatever happened to Rey's parents. He's already shown that he's got no problem with destroying one family if it benefits his agenda. So it stands to reason that there would be others. Which we already know is Finn thanks to the Hux child soldier program. But Rey's also conveniently missing a family and conveniently also missing an explanation of what happened to them.