Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 12

by CienaRee Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:10 am

Irina de France wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:@panki

Where and or when did Obi have visions of a brother... I think it is a distinct possibility that Obi has a brother
@spacebaby45678

I think the ROTJ novelization mentions that Obi-Wan has a brother (or was it that Owen Lars was supposed to be Obi-Wan's brother at some point?)... but the ROTJ novelization isn't canon anymore.

@Irina de France
Yeah,originally Owen was supposed to be Obi Wan's brother and Padme was suppose to have lived for a couple of years with Leia before dying)hence why Leia remembers her) but they included that only in the novalization so it was easy to retconned that later with the prequals.
But it's possible Obi Wan did have abrother since we know nothing about his family in canon.

by panki Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:10 am

spacebaby45678 wrote:@panki

Where and or when did Obi have visions of a brother... I think it is a distinct possibility that Obi has a brother

@spacebaby45678

This is from the EU....it appeared in a young reader's book called Jedi Apprentice when Obi-wan fights a memory wipe....while it isn't canon, I still see it as a plausible scenario.

A visit home. His mother. Softness and light. His father. A laugh, full bodied, joined by his mother's, just as full, just as rich. His brother, sharing a piece of fruit with him. The explosion of sweet juice in his mouth. Soft grasses underneath his bare feet.

The droid activated the memory wipe while the guards watched. A strange sensation began in his temples and moved inward. Not pain, not quite...

Owen. His brother's name was Owen.

There is only one problem with this in the EU. In A Guide to the Star Wars Universe, Owen Lars is described as a moisture farmer from the planet Tatooine whom Luke Skywalker believed to be his natural uncle. In fact, Owen was the brother of another protector of Luke: Ben Kenobi. This was again mentioned in the second edition of the same book- Luke believed that Owen was his natural uncle, but in fact the man was Ben Kenobi's brother.

However, they could always modify this in canon and introduce a new character as Obi-wan's brother instead of Lars....I think it would be a nice explanation and make Rey a Kenobi.

by Birdwoman Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:37 am

In ROTJ, Leia talks about how she remembers her mom as a little girl.
For this very reason, my friend hates the prequels because she felt George didn't bother to line up the storylines with the previous trilogy.

by Kyla Ren Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:50 pm

panki wrote:

7. If Kylo is following Vader's path, he would feel he needs to kill her (he says the line I should kill you but there is another way in the novel) because that is precisely what his grandfather did to Dooku.

@panki

Kylo doesn’t actually say “I should kill you”, he says “I could kill you”. I really don’t think he wanted to kill Rey, even if she is related to Dooku and no matter what Vader did to him. I think he was probably just desperate to get her to join him and probably said whatever he thought might work in order to persuade her.

by panki Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:59 pm

Kyla Ren wrote:
panki wrote:

7. If Kylo is following Vader's path, he would feel he needs to kill her (he says the line I should kill you but there is another way in the novel) because that is precisely what his grandfather did to Dooku.
@panki

Kylo doesn’t actually say “I should kill you”, he says “I could kill you”. I really don’t think he wanted to kill Rey, even if she is related to Dooku and no matter what Vader did to him. I think he was probably just desperate to get her to join him and probably said whatever he thought might work in order to persuade her.

@Kyla Ren

I just typed the line off the top of my head and didn't refer to my copy of the novel.....should...could...small technicality...but yes, I agree he wouldn't have killed her anyway...even though he had enough chances when they initially began fighting unlike Anakin who killed Dooku when he had the chance...the point I was trying to make in my previous post is that there are a lot of parallel scenarios for Rey to be related to Dooku (and a lot of other characters as well)....I was only trying to explain why I think Rey being a royal and a countess of Serenno would make an interesting story.

by LondonGal555 Tue 13 Dec 2016, 3:53 pm

So many of us have great theories and see the little pieces of evidence on where the direction the story is going.

by LondonGal555 Tue 13 Dec 2016, 4:08 pm

Anyone else here think a force bond or other force type connection is between Kylo and Rey? That would make a lot of sense with the hints in the book,movie and all the spoilers.

Now maybe Reys parents are darksiders but she had grandparents that were lightsiders?!?!
Maybe the AT-AT walker where she lives represents her darkside parents? We know that Daisy said her isolation is key to who she is which made me think of Ben Kenobi and his isolation but that doesn't necessarily mean that her parents were on the light side of the force.

Maybe Reys parents has something to do with the secret imperial site on Jakku?!

Hmmmm

by Kyla Ren Tue 13 Dec 2016, 4:50 pm

panki wrote:
Kyla Ren wrote:
panki wrote:
7. If Kylo is following Vader's path, he would feel he needs to kill her (he says the line I should kill you but there is another way in the novel) because that is precisely what his grandfather did to Dooku.
@panki

Kylo doesn’t actually say “I should kill you”, he says “I could kill you”. I really don’t think he wanted to kill Rey, even if she is related to Dooku and no matter what Vader did to him. I think he was probably just desperate to get her to join him and probably said whatever he thought might work in order to persuade her.
@Kyla Ren

I just typed the line off the top of my head and didn't refer to my copy of the novel.....should...could...small technicality...but yes, I agree he wouldn't have killed her anyway...even though he had enough chances when they initially began fighting unlike Anakin who killed Dooku when he had the chance...the point I was trying to make in my previous post is that there are a lot of parallel scenarios for Rey to be related to Dooku (and a lot of other characters as well)....I was only trying to explain why I think Rey being a royal and a countess of Serenno would make an interesting story.

@panki

I'm sorry if I came across as critical about the should/could line from the novel. I didn't mean to. I guess I sometimes come across as a Kylo apologist/defender.

You mentioned the possibility of Rey being Dooku's grandniece. Do you think she could be his granddaughter? Or is it unlikely that he had any children of his own? I've only seen the prequels a few times and I'm really not familiar with the EU so I don't know how likely that is.

But I agree that it would be very interesting if Rey had dark side and/or royal origins of some kind. I hadn't considered Dooku, but that is definitely possible. I think if she turns out to have at least some dark side lineage it would create some interesting possibilities for her interactions with Kylo and for the story in general.

by reylo1992 Tue 13 Dec 2016, 5:03 pm

panki wrote:
LondonGal555 wrote:Ever read Reys survival guide? It says she waits for her people to return for her.
I think she could be royalty. I think snoke has everything to do with her being left.
@LondonGal555

I feel there is too much being read into the rumor by Anthony Brenznican....all he said was this:

I have heard rumors that the one reason they haven’t moved sooner on Obi-Wan is that they’re not done with Obi-Wan quite yet in the Saga films. So I wouldn’t be surprised to see an Obi-Wan thing happen beyond Episode IX.

He never mentions Rey at any point of time. I'm still not convinced she is Obi-wan's grand daughter or great grand daughter, and feel adding such a plot will only spoil him as a character. Rey can definitely be a Kenobi but going by the EU parallels, she could either:

1. Be his grand niece via a brother (Obi-wan had visions of a brother);
2. Be his clone created on Bespin by the FO who attempted to re-create Anakin Skywalker using old robes they found with Vader....discovered they were actually Obi-wans when she turned 5 and left her on Jakku to die or live out her life as Unkar's slave.

Now returning to why I think making Rey a grand daughter or great grand daughter of Obi-wan would feel forced and mess with his character....The only canon LI we know Obi-wan had was Satine.

There is a theory is Korkie is his son...this is problematic because:

a. Obi-wan is around 35 (at the most) when he lands up on Tatooine....Korkie is at the Royal Academy of government one year before TCW ends so he would be 19-early 20s.....so counting back, Obi-wan would have to be between 15-18 years old when he fathered Korkie; Satine would be the same or even younger ....SW is a family movie series, especially the trilogy films...so they definitely will not be promoting such messages.

There is the argument that Disney princesses find love and marry in their teens....but this is a teen pregnancy out of wedlock....I'm sorry but I don't see Disney showing this in a film which draws a young audience.

b. Let us say Korkie is , despite the craziness of point (a) above, is the son of Obi-wan and Satine....we don't see any special connection between Obi-wan and Korkie at any point of their interaction in TCW....a powerful jedi like Obi-wan might not have identified his child but wouldn't they have shown he felt some connection to Korkie? They have absolutely no special moments together in TCW which we can look back upon and say- Ah! Now this makes sense.

c. Obi-wan's child would defintiely be FS....we know from bloodline that FS runs in families....Korkie doesn't show FS abilities at any point of time during TCW. He was a regular guy.

d. Now let us look at a scenario where Satine and Obi-wan had an unknown child who was packed off somewhere far away....Satine was able to discuss her feelings for Obi-wan after which he says he would have left the order if she had only asked...but she still never mentions a child even though she is dying? It again makes little sense and makes her look really bad.

e. Also, Obi-wan is an orthodox jedi....so while the jedi order existed, there was no way he would do anything that went against its tenets.

f. Next, order 66 happens and Obi-wan is now on Tatooine and is no longer obliged to follow jedi rules.....canon comics have confirmed that Obi-wan (now old Ben) was alone and watching Luke day and night on Tatooine, living far away from other residents of Tatooine...except the jawas who he helped out sometimes....in the comics timeline, Luke is already a bit older than 10 years old and Obi-wan has no LI, relationship or even casual drunken fling at the cantina.

g. So we effectively have around 8-9 years at the most in which Obi-wan will have to get some lady pregnant while keeping an eye on Luke all the time....and then either dump her or be dumped by her and continue watching over Luke.

h. Now putting aside these arguments and let us say that Old Ben managed to get someone pregnant despite all this....are we really comfortable with the idea of Obi-wan focusing only on Luke when he has a LI and kid of his own? I doubt they'll do that to his character.... we have to remember these are the same arguments the Reywalkers and Rey Solos bring up to justify Luke as the father..... this would result in one of the best characters in the SW saga being turned into a love rat and deadbeat Dad.

So while I like the idea of Rey being a Kenobi, I think it should be done in a way that does right by his character and not destroy the fact that he was a noble and wonderful character just to wedge Ewan McGregor as her ancestor.....I would prefer they made her his niece or his clone...she would still be a Kenobi and he would still have the same attachment but not look bad at the same time.

This is also why I am more comfortable with her having grey or dark ancestors since they are more capable of getting someone pregnant and dumping them in favour of power.....or even killing their LI to destroy their weaknesses.

Speaking of royalty, I still think her being Count Dooku's grand niece would be a great option....

1. She would be royalty (Palpatine's family were only minor nobles...Dooku's family actually ruled a system and were royals).

2. She would have a strong force sensitive ancestor who combined the light and the dark like the Skywalkers (Dooku was a jedi and then sith).

3. Obi-wan and yoda's force ghosts would have a vested interest in caring for her and appearing in her force vision (Yoda had a force bond with Dooku and even when Sidious wanted Obi-wan killed, Dooku tried to defy him for the first time and make Obi-wan join them instead....also, Obi-wan belongs to Dooku's master-student lineage through Qui Gon).

4. Dooku is a movie character played by a famous actor so the whole argument of the GA not knowing him etc falls flat....if they watched the PT, they would know him.

5. Dooku has the dark hair and british accent (though I think looking at this aspect is silly...some people care about this too)

6. The separatists were the enemies of the Empire and Rebels....so if she was from the Serenno family, she would be persecuted and easily left to die on Jakku by either the new republic or former imperials since both sides hated Dooku.

7. If Kylo is following Vader's path, he would feel he needs to kill her (he says the line I should kill you but there is another way in the novel) because that is precisely what his grandfather did to Dooku.

8. The new canon borrows heavily from the EU...and in the EU, Dooku had an extended family who were killed in a manner similar to the Anastasia story....they could easily bring this into canon.

@panki

Wow! Greats points about the possibility that Rey may be related to Dooku! I had completely forgotten that Dooku also had an English accent - like Palpatine and Obi-Wan. - and that he was royalty.

When Rey uses the DS to fight back against Kylo, it looks indeed like a remake of Anakin vs. Dooku fight in Episode III at some point but with Rey paralleling both Anakin and Kylo's fighting styles after the cliff moment probably because she got it from Kylo himself:

If she's really related to Dooku, then the parallels with Romeo & Juliet + the possibility of some callback to Kovu & Kiara's love story would make a lot of sense. Dooku was behind Padme's assassination's attempt and cut Anakin's hand. In return, Anakin killed Dooku and like @gwendy85 I also buy the theory that Luke may be responsible in some way of Rey's parents' death. I am gonna repeat what I previously wrote in some previous post but I believe that the line "you cannot deny the truth that is your family" was definitely a callback to "deny thy father, refuse thy name" and that by denying his father, Kylo may have strangely made a step forward to Rey. Colin Trevorrow also said that Rey is a character that is important in the entire galaxy not only in the context of TFA. Why is the Force constantly imbalanced? Perhaps because of this eternal fight between the DS and the LS, the same way Verona couldn't find peace because of the eternal hatred between the Montaigu and the Capulet and the same Simba's pride can't have peace because of its rivalry with Zira's pride. Marriages between heirs of two sides/realms/prides was often used the miracle recept to settle a long-time peace. This was still the case only two centuries ago in real life and this is also very common in Disney movies, i.e. Lion King 2, The little mermaid, etc...Overcoming prejudice toward the stanger/the ennemy is a common thread in most of the Disney movies, that's why I would love the idea that Rey & Kylo dynamics would overcome their love-hate interactions fron the beginning (Anidala in reverse), prejudice (Beauty & the Beast) and origins (Romeo & Juliet) at the same time.

by snufkin Tue 13 Dec 2016, 7:14 pm

No theories, just educated guesses going on here thanks to members being knowledgeable about everything from Star Wars, literature, film studies, history, and soap operas! If anything, this year and the Internet in general has made me sick of the idea of "theories" because everybody's a goddamn expert without actually knowing anything.

Honestly, I think the only detail they ever need to spell out for Rey's parents are an explanation of how she's strong af in the Force and how she ended up alone on Jakku. Maz is right that it's irrelevant to her story other than shaping her as a survivor and somebody who's standoffish, sad/meloncholy, and lonely. The only main hook I can see with her background is how it ties her back into the Snoke/Force plot part, because that's the Big Bad she'll eventually be facing off against.

Also because there's enough background about Jyn now from R1 reviews, I'd really hope that LF isn't so unimaginative that they have two white brunette British protagonists with the same exact back story. Because in R1 spoilers

Spoiler:

So hearing that spoiler, it's would seem (one hopes) that LF wouldn't use it twice for Rey's backstory. Which then brings up the question, what other options are there for other equally as plausible backstories which explain what happened to her, how she's so FS, if her family is that way and it had a role in their disappearance, and how that ties in with her being positioned against Snoke/the FO as the main opponent.

Kenobi link - there is a definite effort to show callbacks to that character in both the OT and PT around her. Question remains if it's meant to be more than an homage or if it's going to be a more substantial link between the two characters. Besides her already getting mixed up with his namesake. If there is some kind of family connection, my guess stands that it'll be a throw away detail at the very end of the trilogy. Like when they show the crate with the Ark of the Covenant being wheeled away into the warehouse at the end of RotLA.

by Kyla Ren Tue 13 Dec 2016, 7:33 pm

snufkin wrote:No theories, just educated guesses going on here thanks to members being knowledgeable about everything from Star Wars, literature, film studies, history, and soap operas! If anything, this year and the Internet in general has made me sick of the idea of "theories" because everybody's a goddamn expert without actually knowing anything.

Honestly, I think the only detail they ever need to spell out for Rey's parents are an explanation of how she's strong af in the Force and how she ended up alone on Jakku. Maz is right that it's irrelevant to her story other than shaping her as a survivor and somebody who's standoffish, sad/meloncholy, and lonely. The only main hook I can see with her background is how it ties her back into the Snoke/Force plot part, because that's the Big Bad she'll eventually be facing off against.

Also because there's enough background about Jyn now from R1 reviews, I'd really hope that LF isn't so unimaginative that they have two white brunette British protagonists with the same exact back story. Because in R1 spoilers
Spoiler:
So hearing that spoiler, it's would seem (one hopes) that LF wouldn't use it twice for Rey's backstory. Which then brings up the question, what other options are there for other equally as plausible backstories which explain what happened to her, how she's so FS, if her family is that way and it had a role in their disappearance, and how that ties in with her being positioned against Snoke/the FO as the main opponent.

Kenobi link - there is a definite effort to show callbacks to that character in both the OT and PT around her. Question remains if it's meant to be more than an homage or if it's going to be a more substantial link between the two characters. Besides her already getting mixed up with his namesake. If there is some kind of family connection, my guess stands that it'll be a throw away detail at the very end of the trilogy. Like when they show the crate with the Ark of the Covenant being wheeled away into the warehouse at the end of RotLA.

@snufkin

It's a good question but I don't know. Episode VIII has been described as "weird" hasn't it? Was it John Boyega who said that? Maybe we will end up getting something along the lines of "You are my father", although I really hope not.

by snufkin Tue 13 Dec 2016, 7:52 pm

Kyla Ren wrote:
@snufkin

It's a good question but I don't know. Episode VIII has been described as "weird" hasn't it? Was it John Boyega who said that? Maybe we will end up getting something along the lines of "You are my father", although I really hope not.

@Kyla Ren

Everybody's been jumping on that quote (along with TFA very cleverly mimicking parts of the original movie as both nostalgic/magic trick to distract the audience) as proof that there will be something shocking like "No, I am your father." Well, except that they already went that route with TFA with the reveal that it was Han's son, who you know, kills him as the shocking twist.

Dunno, theories here about weird mostly have to do with the "first Jedi temple" line Han tosses off as meaning that it'll be an exploration of Force mythology and get into areas never covered in the OT or PT. Or that weird will have to do with Rey crossing lines to ~~make out with~~ work with her enemy on a mutual cause. Or that they'll continue with Lawrence Kasdan's original plans for the characters at the end of the OT and make Luke darker/unstable after having looked too close into the heart of the DS of the Force.

by Irina de France Tue 13 Dec 2016, 7:59 pm

I came across this excellent meta today (spoilers for Bloodline, you've been warned) which sums up pretty much everything I've been thinking about Whatever-Happened-At-Luke's-Not-An-Academy:

http://kenobody.tumblr.com/post/150048329469/the-new-jedi-order-massacre

It ties in with the discussion above mainly because a lot of people assume that the big reveal in VIII will have something to do with Rey in one way or another. I think it might not be the case. Of course, there's still a big deal done around her parentage (or at least from a fandom perspective), but... considering how there is a lot of emphasis on the Skywalker lineage, its legacy (especially when it comes to Darth Vader and all the bad sith he has done), it might rather have something to do with Kylo... and Leia.

I’ll also add that while I think people know (or think) that Ben Solo is responsible for the New Jedi Order disappearing, it seems to be also implied (thanks to Pablo’s tweets) that not a lot of people know that Ben Solo = Kylo Ren. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie and Snoke know that, obviously, as well as Rey and Finn, and MAYBE Hux.

That leads me to think that perhaps the “Big Reveal” everyone is waiting for in VIII might not be concerning Rey, but rather the New Republic and the Resistance learning that the poster boy for the First Order was actually General Organa’s son all along. It would be a really hard blow to the Resistance, considering the New Republic is pretty corrupt (and since it's heavily implied in Bloodline that Centrists are FO sympathizers, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Centrist senators just "happened" to be off planet when Hosnian Prime got destroyed), it would be pretty easy for them to have everyone turn against the Resistance since Leia obviously cannot be trusted, which would be disastrous considering they are the only ones standing against the First Order. And I don't think a lot of people in the Resistance would be a-okay with Kylo Ren being their general's son either...

by snufkin Tue 13 Dec 2016, 8:27 pm

John Williams starts recording music for STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII at Sony today. The bulk of scoring will be in the spring.
— ScoringSessions.com (@scoringsessions) December 13, 2016

by IoJovi Tue 13 Dec 2016, 8:37 pm

snufkin wrote:
John Williams starts recording music for STAR WARS: EPISODE VIII at Sony today. The bulk of scoring will be in the spring.
— ScoringSessions.com (@scoringsessions) December 13, 2016

@snufkin

He could be writing Rey and Kylo's love theme as I type this!!! cheers

Okay, I'm done fangirling now...

by snufkin Tue 13 Dec 2016, 8:40 pm

Irina de France wrote:I came across this excellent meta today (spoilers for Bloodline, you've been warned) which sums up pretty much everything I've been thinking about Whatever-Happened-At-Luke's-Not-An-Academy:

http://kenobody.tumblr.com/post/150048329469/the-new-jedi-order-massacre

It ties in with the discussion above mainly because a lot of people assume that the big reveal in VIII will have something to do with Rey in one way or another. I think it might not be the case. Of course, there's still a big deal done around her parentage (or at least from a fandom perspective), but... considering how there is a lot of emphasis on the Skywalker lineage, its legacy (especially when it comes to Darth Vader and all the bad sith he has done), it might rather have something to do with Kylo... and Leia.

I’ll also add that while I think people know (or think) that Ben Solo is responsible for the New Jedi Order disappearing, it seems to be also implied (thanks to Pablo’s tweets) that not a lot of people know that Ben Solo = Kylo Ren. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie and Snoke know that, obviously, as well as Rey and Finn, and MAYBE Hux.

That leads me to think that perhaps the “Big Reveal” everyone is waiting for in VIII might not be concerning Rey, but rather the New Republic and the Resistance learning that the poster boy for the First Order was actually General Organa’s son all along. It would be a really hard blow to the Resistance, considering the New Republic is pretty corrupt (and since it's heavily implied in Bloodline that Centrists are FO sympathizers, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Centrist senators just "happened" to be off planet when Hosnian Prime got destroyed), it would be pretty easy for them to have everyone turn against the Resistance since Leia obviously cannot be trusted, which would be disastrous considering they are the only ones standing against the First Order. And I don't think a lot of people in the Resistance would be a-okay with Kylo Ren being their general's son either...

@Irina de France

That's a great executive summary. I probably didn't pay as much attention to detail as much as the rest of you did when reading Bloodline, but I came away with the impression that it was going for an even more Shakespearean view of Space Politics than what happened in the PT. In terms of showing the different factions, their agendas, and how Leia was targeted both for the amount of influence/power she possessed. Thanks to both to the legacies of her birth mother/adoptive father from the PT and military leadership during the OT. That she's targeted and done in rather viciously by different allied groups striving for influence/power (and the nascent FO factions assembling behind the scenes) by tying her to Vader. Just as she tells Han that she realized after the fact that Snoke targeted Ben from the beginning to take him out as a powerful opponent (by turning him into an ally), Leia is targeted by the same forces to strip her of her power and neutralize her. Well, except then she goes off to form the Resistance!

Anyways, I would agree with the premise that Ben was targeted not just as somebody powerful who could be molded into a weapon, but also as a propaganda tool in taking down the entire family's legacy and influence. And that there's a good chance (especially given the collaboration between Claudia Grey and Rian Johnson) that will play into VIII with both the reveal of "what went wrong" and the NR/Resistance storyline including more politics. So Leia may be attacked further by her opponents with the reveal of where her son has been. Would certainly torque up the drama.

by ReyofLightSide Tue 13 Dec 2016, 8:52 pm

Irina de France wrote:I came across this excellent meta today (spoilers for Bloodline, you've been warned) which sums up pretty much everything I've been thinking about Whatever-Happened-At-Luke's-Not-An-Academy:

http://kenobody.tumblr.com/post/150048329469/the-new-jedi-order-massacre

It ties in with the discussion above mainly because a lot of people assume that the big reveal in VIII will have something to do with Rey in one way or another. I think it might not be the case. Of course, there's still a big deal done around her parentage (or at least from a fandom perspective), but... considering how there is a lot of emphasis on the Skywalker lineage, its legacy (especially when it comes to Darth Vader and all the bad sith he has done), it might rather have something to do with Kylo... and Leia.

I’ll also add that while I think people know (or think) that Ben Solo is responsible for the New Jedi Order disappearing, it seems to be also implied (thanks to Pablo’s tweets) that not a lot of people know that Ben Solo = Kylo Ren. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie and Snoke know that, obviously, as well as Rey and Finn, and MAYBE Hux.

That leads me to think that perhaps the “Big Reveal” everyone is waiting for in VIII might not be concerning Rey, but rather the New Republic and the Resistance learning that the poster boy for the First Order was actually General Organa’s son all along. It would be a really hard blow to the Resistance, considering the New Republic is pretty corrupt (and since it's heavily implied in Bloodline that Centrists are FO sympathizers, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Centrist senators just "happened" to be off planet when Hosnian Prime got destroyed), it would be pretty easy for them to have everyone turn against the Resistance since Leia obviously cannot be trusted, which would be disastrous considering they are the only ones standing against the First Order. And I don't think a lot of people in the Resistance would be a-okay with Kylo Ren being their general's son either...

@Irina de France

LST knows as well about Ben Solo. The plot thickens...

I am leaning to scenario 2 having been what happened.

by ISeeAnIsland Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:25 pm

Irina de France wrote:I came across this excellent meta today (spoilers for Bloodline, you've been warned) which sums up pretty much everything I've been thinking about Whatever-Happened-At-Luke's-Not-An-Academy:

http://kenobody.tumblr.com/post/150048329469/the-new-jedi-order-massacre

It ties in with the discussion above mainly because a lot of people assume that the big reveal in VIII will have something to do with Rey in one way or another. I think it might not be the case. Of course, there's still a big deal done around her parentage (or at least from a fandom perspective), but... considering how there is a lot of emphasis on the Skywalker lineage, its legacy (especially when it comes to Darth Vader and all the bad sith he has done), it might rather have something to do with Kylo... and Leia.

I’ll also add that while I think people know (or think) that Ben Solo is responsible for the New Jedi Order disappearing, it seems to be also implied (thanks to Pablo’s tweets) that not a lot of people know that Ben Solo = Kylo Ren. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie and Snoke know that, obviously, as well as Rey and Finn, and MAYBE Hux.

That leads me to think that perhaps the “Big Reveal” everyone is waiting for in VIII might not be concerning Rey, but rather the New Republic and the Resistance learning that the poster boy for the First Order was actually General Organa’s son all along. It would be a really hard blow to the Resistance, considering the New Republic is pretty corrupt (and since it's heavily implied in Bloodline that Centrists are FO sympathizers, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Centrist senators just "happened" to be off planet when Hosnian Prime got destroyed), it would be pretty easy for them to have everyone turn against the Resistance since Leia obviously cannot be trusted, which would be disastrous considering they are the only ones standing against the First Order. And I don't think a lot of people in the Resistance would be a-okay with Kylo Ren being their general's son either...

@Irina de France

I could see that being the case but, ugh, I don't want that to happen. (Because LF should totally do what I want!!!!!!)

Leia has already had to endure so much tragedy and getting screwed over by political enemies, I would just hate to see that happen again. I think that reveal also makes Ben's redemption without jail, exile, or execution that much more difficult. Which, while not being very Reylo-friendly, it also means that Leia doesn't get her son back at the end. That just seems like an awfully bleak story ending to me.

by LondonGal555 Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:27 pm

What Leia says foreshadows Ben coming home. She says I want him back. Bring him home. She says that to Han and Hans death is what will actually bring him home in the end. I know Ben will come home because in bloodline it foreshadows Leia as a grandmother.

by Birdwoman Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:18 pm

After reading Bloodline, I didn't care anymore who Rey's parents are....the Skywalker dysfunction and how Ben ended up Kylo Ren was much more intriguing to me....so excited to see what went down between him and Uncle Luke.

by LondonGal555 Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:22 pm

It was bad since Luke walked away. Luke sees that lightsaber and becomes very tortured.

Lor tekka says to kylo "something far worse has happened to you". You can take that because of who he is now as kylo or that really something very bad happened to Ben which helped turn him into kylo ren

by DarthRen Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:54 pm

Irina de France wrote:I came across this excellent meta today (spoilers for Bloodline, you've been warned) which sums up pretty much everything I've been thinking about Whatever-Happened-At-Luke's-Not-An-Academy:

http://kenobody.tumblr.com/post/150048329469/the-new-jedi-order-massacre

It ties in with the discussion above mainly because a lot of people assume that the big reveal in VIII will have something to do with Rey in one way or another. I think it might not be the case. Of course, there's still a big deal done around her parentage (or at least from a fandom perspective), but... considering how there is a lot of emphasis on the Skywalker lineage, its legacy (especially when it comes to Darth Vader and all the bad sith he has done), it might rather have something to do with Kylo... and Leia.

I’ll also add that while I think people know (or think) that Ben Solo is responsible for the New Jedi Order disappearing, it seems to be also implied (thanks to Pablo’s tweets) that not a lot of people know that Ben Solo = Kylo Ren. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie and Snoke know that, obviously, as well as Rey and Finn, and MAYBE Hux.

That leads me to think that perhaps the “Big Reveal” everyone is waiting for in VIII might not be concerning Rey, but rather the New Republic and the Resistance learning that the poster boy for the First Order was actually General Organa’s son all along. It would be a really hard blow to the Resistance, considering the New Republic is pretty corrupt (and since it's heavily implied in Bloodline that Centrists are FO sympathizers, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Centrist senators just "happened" to be off planet when Hosnian Prime got destroyed), it would be pretty easy for them to have everyone turn against the Resistance since Leia obviously cannot be trusted, which would be disastrous considering they are the only ones standing against the First Order. And I don't think a lot of people in the Resistance would be a-okay with Kylo Ren being their general's son either...

@Irina de France

Some really good points here. I think we might get Rey's reveal even tho JJ or someone said that we might have to wait until Episode IX. But Kylo being Leia's son will cause troubles mainly for Ressistance and not First Order whatever is left of it. Snoke controls them via Hux. Think it might be something with Kylo/Ben and how he killed those kids and causes Luke to disappear. Speaking of Luke. What is he doing on Ach-To? I think Rey's parentage is obviously for any fans number one priority but I am more of interested in Kylo's reason for leaning towards Snoke, not necessarily FO. What really happened, was it Kylo who did it and why? Snoke where is he coming from and what's his purpose or goal in this trilogy.

Does Rey and Finn knows that Kylo is Ben Solo and son of Han and Leia? They saw their confrontation and she accuses of him being monster. But does she knows about Kylo and Ben.

by Kyla Ren Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:02 pm

DarthRen wrote:
Irina de France wrote:I came across this excellent meta today (spoilers for Bloodline, you've been warned) which sums up pretty much everything I've been thinking about Whatever-Happened-At-Luke's-Not-An-Academy:

http://kenobody.tumblr.com/post/150048329469/the-new-jedi-order-massacre

It ties in with the discussion above mainly because a lot of people assume that the big reveal in VIII will have something to do with Rey in one way or another. I think it might not be the case. Of course, there's still a big deal done around her parentage (or at least from a fandom perspective), but... considering how there is a lot of emphasis on the Skywalker lineage, its legacy (especially when it comes to Darth Vader and all the bad sith he has done), it might rather have something to do with Kylo... and Leia.

I’ll also add that while I think people know (or think) that Ben Solo is responsible for the New Jedi Order disappearing, it seems to be also implied (thanks to Pablo’s tweets) that not a lot of people know that Ben Solo = Kylo Ren. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie and Snoke know that, obviously, as well as Rey and Finn, and MAYBE Hux.

That leads me to think that perhaps the “Big Reveal” everyone is waiting for in VIII might not be concerning Rey, but rather the New Republic and the Resistance learning that the poster boy for the First Order was actually General Organa’s son all along. It would be a really hard blow to the Resistance, considering the New Republic is pretty corrupt (and since it's heavily implied in Bloodline that Centrists are FO sympathizers, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Centrist senators just "happened" to be off planet when Hosnian Prime got destroyed), it would be pretty easy for them to have everyone turn against the Resistance since Leia obviously cannot be trusted, which would be disastrous considering they are the only ones standing against the First Order. And I don't think a lot of people in the Resistance would be a-okay with Kylo Ren being their general's son either...
@Irina de France

Some really good points here. I think we might get Rey's reveal even tho JJ or someone said that we might have to wait until Episode IX. But Kylo being Leia's son will cause troubles mainly for Ressistance and not First Order whatever is left of it. Snoke controls them via Hux. Think it might be something with Kylo/Ben and how he killed those kids and causes Luke to disappear. Speaking of Luke. What is he doing on Ach-To? I think Rey's parentage is obviously for any fans number one priority but I am more of interested in Kylo's reason for leaning towards Snoke, not necessarily FO. What really happened, was it Kylo who did it and why? Snoke where is he coming from and what's his purpose or goal in this trilogy.

Does Rey and Finn knows that Kylo is Ben Solo and son of Han and Leia? They saw their confrontation and she accuses of him being monster. But does she knows about Kylo and Ben.

@DarthRen

I kind of think that Leia might have filled Rey in on the details about Kylo/Ben between when she landed at the Resistance base and when she took off to go to Ahch-to. I guess Finn will probably now know that Kylo is Han and Leia's son since he witnessed the confrontation on the bridge, but I don't know if Leia would fill him in on all the details. Maybe it's on a kind of need to know basis? And maybe Leia would feel that with Rey embarking on her mission to bring Luke back that she would need to know all the details of what happened, but Finn, Poe, etc. would not. But obviously this is all speculation on my part.

by reylo1992 Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:17 pm

ReyofLightSide wrote:
Irina de France wrote:I came across this excellent meta today (spoilers for Bloodline, you've been warned) which sums up pretty much everything I've been thinking about Whatever-Happened-At-Luke's-Not-An-Academy:

http://kenobody.tumblr.com/post/150048329469/the-new-jedi-order-massacre

It ties in with the discussion above mainly because a lot of people assume that the big reveal in VIII will have something to do with Rey in one way or another. I think it might not be the case. Of course, there's still a big deal done around her parentage (or at least from a fandom perspective), but... considering how there is a lot of emphasis on the Skywalker lineage, its legacy (especially when it comes to Darth Vader and all the bad sith he has done), it might rather have something to do with Kylo... and Leia.

I’ll also add that while I think people know (or think) that Ben Solo is responsible for the New Jedi Order disappearing, it seems to be also implied (thanks to Pablo’s tweets) that not a lot of people know that Ben Solo = Kylo Ren. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie and Snoke know that, obviously, as well as Rey and Finn, and MAYBE Hux.

That leads me to think that perhaps the “Big Reveal” everyone is waiting for in VIII might not be concerning Rey, but rather the New Republic and the Resistance learning that the poster boy for the First Order was actually General Organa’s son all along. It would be a really hard blow to the Resistance, considering the New Republic is pretty corrupt (and since it's heavily implied in Bloodline that Centrists are FO sympathizers, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Centrist senators just "happened" to be off planet when Hosnian Prime got destroyed), it would be pretty easy for them to have everyone turn against the Resistance since Leia obviously cannot be trusted, which would be disastrous considering they are the only ones standing against the First Order. And I don't think a lot of people in the Resistance would be a-okay with Kylo Ren being their general's son either...
@Irina de France

LST knows as well about Ben Solo. The plot thickens...

I am leaning to scenario 2 having been what happened.

@ReyofLightSide

Interesting! I can totally see that happening. What if Kylo killed LST also because he feared that the old man could have revealed his identity in front of everyone? As for Ep. VIII, this would mean that only Luke, Leia, Chewie, Snoke, Rey and Finn know for sure who Ben is. The first three would never reveal his real identity. I don't see Rey doing this either if she is supposed to develop romantic feelings for him.
- By contrast, Finn would have some reasons to do that:
1. Kylo injured him seriously
2. Finn may develop romantic feelings for someone else in Ep. VIII but I can imagine he wouldn't understand that Rey could develop feelings for Kylo because he already missed a big part of their story in TFA, either because he wasn't there or because he was in coma.
3. As a big deal of the Resistance, he could see Ben/Kylo as a threat no matter what Rey's feelings are
4. He knows that Ben/Kylo is Han's son but probably not that he's Leia's
==> So the uncomplete information about Ben/Kylo could lead Finn to reveal the identity because he thinks that's the right thing to do, both for Rey and the Resistance
- Snoke could reveal it if Ben/Kylo betray him
- Hux could do the same for the same reasons providing that he knows about it

by snufkin Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:29 pm

Speaking of space politics and making things darker/nuanced, I do like Charles Mudede (Seattle based filmmaker/critic originally from Zimbabwe)'s take on R1:

But the rebels have their problems. True, they are fighting for the good (diversity and a kind of monarchical parliamentarism), but they also do bad things in the name of this larger good, which is ultimately their idea (in the sense of the idea in Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness: "Something you can set up, and bow down before, and offer a sacrifice to"). The Empire has its idea, and the rebels have theirs, and this is the meat of Gareth Edwards's Rogue One, which, of course, is very entertaining, is packed with action, moves very quickly, makes little demands on its actors, has beautiful spectacles of destruction, and involves a battle scene that will leave you exhausted.

Now, what is the bad side of the rebellion?
Spoiler:
To beat evil, you must use evil. During a moment at the rebel base, there is a direct conversation about this, and all come to agree that amoral spies, freelance assassins, and terrorists with underworld connections are needed if the goal is to win the war.

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