ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 12

IoJovi wrote:

snufkin wrote:This is the same site who were saying a couple weeks ago that "black cape" equals wearing Vader's cape? And yet no similar conjecture in this situation? That would be hilarious though if it does end up with him loaning her his sweet cape, that's such a cliche.

@snufkin

Yep, one in the same.  Also, the more I think about these puffins and the sea monster which Rey fights, the less plausible this seems.  I'm trying to think of how this would serve the overall story without seeming like a crazy version of Fraggle Rock meets Star Wars.  It's either a very short scene close to the beginning of the movie done to highlight Rey's capabilities, or MSW is being mislead.  

Either way it seems....odd.

@IoJovi

Well Gary Kurtz did team up with Jim Henson after his post ESB falling out with George Lucas over how the story and characters should conclude. So maybe that's their line of reasoning, Muppets are involved (which if I'm honest, I had pretty low expectations for the ST because Disney also bought the Muppets and have reduced them to 'funny puppets' versus Jim Henson's subversive humor). There's likely going to be some type of critters, but the description sounds like one of the  tropes Galaxy Quest sends up so well

snufkin wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

snufkin wrote:This is the same site who were saying a couple weeks ago that "black cape" equals wearing Vader's cape? And yet no similar conjecture in this situation? That would be hilarious though if it does end up with him loaning her his sweet cape, that's such a cliche.

@snufkin

Yep, one in the same.  Also, the more I think about these puffins and the sea monster which Rey fights, the less plausible this seems.  I'm trying to think of how this would serve the overall story without seeming like a crazy version of Fraggle Rock meets Star Wars.  It's either a very short scene close to the beginning of the movie done to highlight Rey's capabilities, or MSW is being mislead.  

Either way it seems....odd.

@IoJovi

Well Gary Kurtz did team up with Jim Henson after his post ESB falling out with George Lucas over how the story and characters should conclude. So maybe that's their line of reasoning, Muppets are involved (which if I'm honest, I had pretty low expectations for the ST because Disney also bought the Muppets and have reduced them to 'funny puppets' versus Jim Henson's subversive humor). There's likely going to be some type of critters, but the description sounds like one of the  tropes Galaxy Quest sends up so well

@snufkin

Obviously it's the GFFA, and I understand that alien creatures are very much a part of that universe. Still, I picture the A /Force plot to have an undertone of seriousness to it, and cutesy little aliens don't quite fit into how I picture it. Then again, Rian Johnson said VIII would be weird, and this definitely falls into that category...

@IoJovi - yeah we'll see. The only filmmaker I have confidence in when it comes to handling weird supernatural creatures as part of serious drama and female coming of age is Guillermo del Toro. That sort of thing is in his wheelhouse with Pan's Labyrinth, Pacific Rim, and the Hellboy movies. Which is part of the bummer about him passing on directing one of the installments.

snufkin wrote:This is the same site who were saying a couple weeks ago that "black cape" equals wearing Vader's cape? And yet no similar conjecture in this situation? That would be hilarious though if it does end up with him loaning her his sweet cape, that's such a cliche.

@snufkin

My money is on it simply being a cover for Rey's costume or a way to keep warm between takes.

However, if Kylo does lend Rey his cloak/cape, it could serve as a parallel to Finn briefly lending Rey his/Poe's jacket. Especially, if as I'm guessing, the whole point of Finn trying to grab Rey's hand and the "do you have a cute boyfriend?" were to serve as contrasts for how she ends up behaving with Kylo later on.

It was a long time ago, but I'm sure there was mention of puppets being involved during the filming in Ireland. Disney certainly don't miss a trick when it comes to merchandising and kids and adults alike would be all over these cute sounding critters. I recall Pablo saying recently how kids loved the Ewoks and I certainly did at the time (and still do!) We mustn't forget the target audience in all of this. I wasn't really expecting (or wanting) dark and gritty, and weird can mean different things to different people. Rian Johnson seems like a fun, good-hearted kind of guy and I'm looking forward to seeing what he's done with Ep VIII. I'm personally in it for more than the Reylo, as I'm sure many of us are, so all the alien stuff sounds good to me!

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:This is the same site who were saying a couple weeks ago that "black cape" equals wearing Vader's cape? And yet no similar conjecture in this situation? That would be hilarious though if it does end up with him loaning her his sweet cape, that's such a cliche.

@snufkin

My money is on it simply being a cover for Rey's costume or a way to keep warm between takes.

However, if Kylo does lend Rey his cloak/cape, it could serve as a parallel to Finn briefly lending Rey his/Poe's jacket. Especially, if as I'm guessing, the whole point of Finn trying to grab Rey's hand and the "do you have a cute boyfriend?" were to serve as contrasts for how she ends up behaving with Kylo later on.

@ISeeAnIsland

the whole point of Finn trying to grab Rey's hand and the "do you have a cute boyfriend?" were to serve as contrasts for how she ends up behaving with Kylo later on.

Ha, maybe! It sounds like some of that dialogue was left over from the pre-HF on set accident, before JJ re-tooled their relationship to be less tense/sniping. But we'll see how much they roll with 'relates to Rey' as a further contrast between Finn and Ben/Kylo (per @MeadowofAshes' new thread). It does look like Finn loaned her Poe's jacket during the excised segment when the two of them go off to disable the security locks on the oscillator so Han & Chewie could go in set the bombs.

If it's cutesy aliens, just for the love of God, please no more well meaning but heavy handed attempts to honor local indigenous tribes. I seriously wonder if how the Miwok (which is the local tribe for Northern California) feel about having a bunch of cute cavorting teddy bears named in their honor? It's not like LF has ever given them any of the toy royalties.

The thing about the cloak and Kylo being gentleman. It brings an interesting ideas about them forming some sort of uneasy alliance. This Kylo, Luke Rey or Kylo and Luke. Preferably Kylo and Rey and for them to bicker around each other like an old married couple, Kylo showing his skill with being a pilot, love for ships (he spend a lot of time on Falcon), them being abandoned in their mind. So many possibilities to explore with them and it would be shame if they weren't alone together at some point and working.

Kyla Ren wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:Yay for the details, but where's the main conflict and the interesting relationship? where's the Jedi temple? Why Rey goes off to rescue Leia? Where's the ocean? Where's the island? Where are the "ramifications"?!

@Maria Antonietta

I'm going to guess all of this occurs very early on in the film - maybe the first act.  Then Dangerous Dreamboat finally arrives...  

So given that, as much as I'd love for Rey to be wearing Kylo's cloak, I'm going to guess it's a covering for her actual costume.  

@IoJovi

I'm so ready for disappointment. Don't worry, guys! I'm usually a pessimistic person

@Maria Antonietta

Me, too.  I tend to pessimistic, and even though I'm really excited for Episode VIII, I'm also kind of worried.  I guess it's mainly because TFA was just so good and set the bar so high, and the Reylo interactions and UST we got were just incredible.  I worry that Episode VIII might fall short of the mark.  Reylo has the potential to be a truly epic romance, but I'm just kind of afraid they might mess it up.

@Kyla Ren

I don't tend to be pessimistic but it's true that a part of me isn't so exited to discover what Ep. VIII looks like because it's so much fun to imagine all possible scenari for Ben/Kylo & Rey's relationship. What makes it so compelling is the fact that it has so much potential because J.J. really made big efforts to foreshadow these two disparate pieces coming together one day. It is interesting to note that they brought so many efforts to work every little detail (position of the characters, dialog, symbolism, references, Easter Eggs, music, etc...) specifically in 5 major scenes, all of them involving Ben/Kylo & Rey although the two of them barely share 10 minutes of screen time together:
- Scene 1: Rey's vision
- Scene 2: Rey's abduction
- Scene 3: The interrogation
- Scene 4: Han Solo's death
- Scene 5: The snow fight

If we focus i.e. only on Ben/Kylo & Rey's first encounter, let's gather all the elements that we all pointed out on this forum since the beginning. Apologies in advance if I forget some important contribution:

1.  Position of the characters:
- Rey on the light side vs. Kylo on the dark side; Rey at the bottom vs. Kylo on the top
- Kylo bridal-carrying Rey to his ship

2. Dialog: The girl I've heard so much about... ==> callback to Beauty & the Beast woth Belle & Rey being repedtidly called the girl"

3.  Symbolism:
a. Light vs. Dark:
- Rey dressed in white vs. Kylo dressed in black
- Kylo moving from the Dark side to the Light side while approaching Rey
b. Forest as the meeting place for the first encounter between a prince and a princess (cf. J.J.'s commentary)
c. Forest as the symbol of sexual awakening:
- Rey's "purety" symbolized by the callback to Boticelli's Birth of Venus ==> position of the hand to cover her lap as if she felt naked in front of Kylo

- Kylo's "phallic" symbol:

Bonus: I've read somewhere that the shell in Boticelli's Birth of Venus is meant to symbolize Venus' vulva. Well, the callback to this painting makes sense if we look at the gif above
d. Marriage symbolism:
- Rey dressed in white vs. Kylo dressed in black
- Kiss the bride
- Bridal-carry to the space limo
- Marriage procession
e. Descent into Hell's symbolism: Callback to Hades's chariot while he's abducting Persephone



4. Cultural references:
a. E.T. The Extraterrestrial (let's keep in mind that Kathleen Kennedy was the producer of E.T. and that Steven Spielberg played some part part in the TFA film editing)
- The day after Elliott accidentally found E.T. in the cornfield, he goes into the forest; after Rey accidentally saw Kylo in the vision, she runs into the forest. No proof in itself but still interesting to note that both forest have similar elements in common (high rocks, fern)

- A little later, this happens in both movies:

==> Camera zooms on both Elliott and Rey as E.T. and Kylo are approaching them, giving the audience an impression of danger. Both Elliott and Rey are unable to move away, Elliott because he's scared and Rey because she's petrified by Kylo

==> Camera moving from Elliott's face in big shot to the right to reveal E.T.'s hand moving toward Elliott from the right to the left; Camera following Kylo's hand from the right to the left to reveal Rey's face in big shot
b. Beauty & the Beast: "Come into the light!"
c. Romeo & Juliet: John Williams' "The Abduction" sounding similar to Tschaikowsky's Romeo & Juliet's theme

d. Anakin & Padme

==> Both Anakin & Kylo kiss/ sort of kiss their partner/love interest and then go away
e. Gone with the Wind:

Bonus: starring the stormtroopers in the role of the candles! lol

5. Easter Eggs:



The sole encounter scene (aside from the war scene) is the proof that theStar Wars crew worked so hard on the symbolism of this scene, which emphasizes its significance in the whole trilogy. In only 1-2 minutes, they managed to provided the general audience with all subtle clues foreshadowing a "very interesting relationship", most of these clues hinting at a romance. So did they for all the other few scenes that Kylo and Rey that shared in the movie. In short: we must have faith in our analysis of the movie and in the intentionality of the Star Wars crew! It's true that they placed the bar very high but after all J.J. Abrams is still part of the Star Wars crew as executive producer of Episode VIII so he'll have his part to play in making sure that Ryan Johnson continues what he has started. So I have faith that they'll manage to take full advantage of the TFA potential.

I think that where we may be a little disappointed in Episode VIII is that some of Kylo and Rey's scenes may not be as great as they were in TFA, not because they would be bad written or bad acted but because both characters shall share much more screen time in Episode VIII. In TFA, they had barely 10 minutes of shared screen time so they could really put a lot of energy specifically on these important scenes. The interrogation scene is a very good exemple of great acting, perhaps the best scene symply in term of interpretation in a Star Wars movie. In Episode VIII, they should have much more screen time so mechanically actors can't spend so much energy in all scenes. However, Adam & Daisy are both great actors and proved to work very well together so I have faith in them too.

There is one thing that I would like to share about the use of TFA's potential in Episode VIII: This week, French T.V broadcast all Star Wars movies so I have been watching the whole franchise each evening this saturday with my brothers and I went with them on Tuesday to the theaters just before they broadcasted Episode IV on T.V. My oldest brother told that Rogue One was really the kind of Star Wars movie he wanted to see, especially because it shows that things ain't black and white. He also said that he liked Rogue One better than TFA. So I asked him why he doesn't like TFA so much?
1. First, he said that he considers TFA as a good best-of of both the original and prequel trilogies but with nothing really new to add.
2. Then, he told me that he doesn't Kylo Ren as a character. He calls Kylo Snape because of his appearance so he didn't miss the similarity between both characters. He finds Kylo Ren disappointing as a character because it unsettles him  that the villain is depicted as a "spotty and emo teenager" because he should be more bad*** and controlled. He really like Vador and Krennic in Rogue One because they act like typical villains and he doesn't like the idea of a villain acting like a whining victim.
3. Then, I was extremely surprised that he made a comment about Kylo's physical appearance because I know my brother so well: I can assure you that he's the last person who would make some comment on people's appearance in general. In short, he finds Kylo's appearance unsettling - especially his nose, his ears and his teenage appearance - and literally told me: "I find him really ugly! I mean, he's Han and Leia's son after all! He's also Anakin and Padme's grandson". Again, I was extremely surprised that he told me that: I insist that my oldest brother is really the last person I would expect to have judgement about someone's appearance.

It seems that the Star Wars crew wanted the audience to see Kylo either as the embodiment of beauty (i.e. the interrogation scene) or ugliness (i.e. Snoke's scene right after the interrogation) and even both them. People seem to react completely differently to Kylo's appearance and more to his than Daisy Ridley's, so I guess he was meant to be more sexualized than her,which is a strange but nice reversal after all[/b]: I saw a comment somewhere on the web where a girl wrote that her first reaction to the unmasking was to think "take your mask back on! You look ugly!" where I had the completely opposite reaction. I don't find Adam Driver neither especially handsome nor ugly in general and it's true that when I discover that the face of the actor who would play the villain - a long time before TFA came into the theaters, my first reaction was: "Wow! This guy really has an untypical face! ". But when I saw him unmasked for the first time, I found him handsome and attractive (reacting probably very much like Rey did) and even more thanks to Adam Driver's great acting. I thought: "Wow! I couldn't imagine someone else playing Kylo Ren!". So this leads me to the supposition that it's no coincidence that people react so differently and my brother's unexpected comment led me to the following supposition: what if young Ben was sort of ugly duckling, i.e. was mocked by his counterparts not only because he was seen as the "failed" son of war heroes but also because of he wasn't good-looking (i.e. "Look at that ears! His father is through so handsome and attractive"). It could explain partly why he doesn't feel so confident in showing his face. And more important: this means that Rey finds him handsome and attractive where others don't!
4. Then, my brother finds it unsettling that Rey gained so many skills with no training prior to this and was able to defeat Kylo from their first battle although he recognizes that Chewie's bowcaster played a big part in this.
5. Finally, he believes Rey not to be a Skywalker/Solo, he wishes she won't be because Star Wars shouldn't focus only on the Skywalkers and he felt a little the potentiality of Reylo but it is only a vague impression from his side. He doesn't really appreciate TFA in itself but he thinks that this movie was meant to prepare the ground for the trilogy plot. So he sees through a great potential in TFA but is waiting to see how this potential will be used in Episode VIII. He concluded by saying: "If Episode VIII proved to be a very good movie that gives sense to the potential of TFA and gives satisfying explanation to what was unsettling, I will see TFA as a much better movie than I usually did. Until then, I'll wait and see!". What worries me is that a lot of my relatives (family & friends) didn't really like TFA. One of my cousin told me: "Well! It's a movie for fans more than for the general audience! Too similar to Episode IV". One of my friend even told me: "TFA is only a poor remake of Episode IV! They could have made a completely different story than before but chosed to copy what was done before! This is just marketing to get aklways more money! I won't go see the next film" She especially disliked the fact that again a Skywalker became the villain like his grandfather did because it gave her the impression of deja-vu. As I wrote in a previous post, I find the French version of TFA quite bad in regard to the original: I think that I could have had another point of view of TFA if I had discovered TFA with this version. I noticed Reylo because I first saw the German version, where Kylo's sensual voice makes the interorgation scene so much intimate that his French voice. Fortunately, I know other people whol liked the movie anyway

So I have big faith in the Star Wars crew but I think that misunderstanding from some part of the general audience plus Reylo bashing should encourage them to provide us with some explicit answers in Episode VIII. Even Daisy Ridley debunked the Mary Sue theory, saying explicitly that Rey ain't only a (too) strong character but is also fragile in some way. I think that the way they have tried within the last weeks to make people understand that Rey & Jyn ain't related, that Rey ain't a Skywalker, that Kylo ain't a typical villain, that Rey & Kylo will have an "interestiing relationship moving forward", that Star Wars has to do with fairytales make it clear that they're aware that TFA was perhaps a little too subtle to enable the general audience to understand what's beyond the TFA plot. Like my brothers said when I told him how much they made efforts to give subtle callbacks (Romeo & Juliet, BABT, so on..), he told: "Yeah!That's nice to hint so many subtle clues but the general audience doesn't analyse the film as deep as some do so it will need explicit answers to have things making sense in their minds. So let's wait and see for Episode VIII!".

We have actually seen Space Chicken to presumably there will be something with that.
When Yoda trained Luke, there was some humor to it so maybe the Ach-to scenes won't be as serious.

Rogue One showed that Star Wars can do good stories outside of Skywalkers. It was raw, exciting and authentic. Something that many fans wanted to see as perspective from Resistance, not black and white. A lot of questionable characters but let's hope Rian Johnson will make next two movies good.

A lot of people don't pick up on subtle hints to Reylo, they need more proof and this is where I don't know with Disney as many of the general audience don't think Reylo will happen as a couple.

ReyofLightSide wrote:I think Disney wants this trilogy's Ewok and so we have the puffin thingies. I will DIE laughing if they fall in love with Kylo.
"Get! I am dark and evil! So EEEEEEEEvil! So scary! Fly away!"   *Puffin does not fly away but stays contentedly on Kylo's shoulder*

@ReyofLightSide

The puffins are going to redeem Kylo with their love, that will be the plot twist of the trilogy.

Puffins + Kylo cape + Kylo helmet + Kylo boots =

Why am I getting such a strong Ice Age vibe from this puffin leak?

Kylo/Rey show up unwelcomed:


(Doom on you, Doom on you!)

Sid is Kylo (or Rey):


Puffins attack!

vaderito wrote:Puffins + Kylo cape + Kylo helmet + Kylo boots =

@vaderito

hahahahah please let this be so!

@ReyofLightSide There has to be some comedy with Kylo and puffins. It's begging for it.

Well I must say that I don't really like the idea of having sort of Ewoks in Ep. VIII for several reasons.

First, there will have so much things to tell in this movie in a little more than 2 hours, taking account that a Star Wars always follow different parallel stories in the whole story. We know that he have at least 3 parallel stories to follow at the beginning of Episode VIII: Luke & Rey on Achch-To; Kylo Ren & Snoke somewhere else; Finn & the Resistance somewhere else. So I really they're not going to spend too much time focusing on some cute creatures just to please children, especially it's not so worthy at the end. For the Ewok, it's okay because they were useful in the battle in the end but I really dislike Jar Jar Bink who added nothing to the story. Through I really like BB-8 because he was super cute and funny in TFA so I think that keeping only BB-8 for the younggest audience would be enough.

Second, Achch-To will be obviously the place where the relationship between & Kylo shall take another step for several reasons:
1. Rey has been dreaming for years of an ocean & an island, which seems to moves Kylo for some reson. This is the moment where he sort of smile softly, looks at her with sort of dreamy eyes and opens a little his mouth as if he was going to kiss her. Adam Driver's body language suggests that this place should be actually important for both of thenm not only for Rey.
2. The choice of the location must have some specific meaning. In this regard, I find Mike Zeroh's video about the choice of this specific island in Ireland interesting:
I was never in Ireland so I can't confirm by myself but if I well understood, Mike Zeroh was there for vacation. I find it interesting that he emphasizes the fact that the Star Wars chose such a beautiful place to set scenes for Episode VIII. If we have a look on all the planets (Naboo,Dantooine, Coruscant, Geonosis, Mustafar, Alderaan, Yavin IV, Hoth, Endor, Jakku, Takodana, Illenium) that we saw from the beginning of the franchise, none of them appears to be especially beautiful, except Naboo where Anakin & Padme's romance began. Alderaan was through beautiful but the planet played no major role in itself. If I had to chose one planet to enable a romance to happen, I would definitely chose Naboo. All the scenes were set on Lake Comu, which is such a romantic place. So the intentionality of the Star Wars crew by that time was very clear. As for Achch-To, it is a beautiful and mysterious place at the time so that the idea of a romance taking place there doesn't out like it would if they had chosen again the Lake Comu or another very romantic place. I find that that Achch-To would fit well to Kylo & Rey's relationship their interactions are romantic in their way but full of mystery.
3. The Star Wars crew wanted to emphasize in the movie that Rey has been dreaming of an ocean, which is probably no coincidence. The ocean seems actually more important than the island itself. Ren literally means Yang Water, which is associated both to oceans (turbulent waters) and black color. Both Ren & Padme mean lotus, this flower being associated to water. In the Prequel trilogy - especially in Episode II, Padme is associated to Yin Water, which is itself associated to lakes (soft water) and blue color. In Episode II, the romance takes place in the lake countries of Naboo (contrée des lacs in French), a place with a lot of green and a little blue where Achch-To is a place with a lot of blue and a little green.

Finally, although Kylo & Rey share barely 10 minutes screentime, the Star Wars made sure that they would spend this time alone so enable some intimacy to develop between them. They encounter in a forest far from the battle. Although Kylo gets interrupted, Rey's adbudtion lead to the interrogation scene which is the only scene where two characters have a long screen time together without interation with other characters or without interuption for some reason. Finn & Rey may share a lot of screen time but they are never completely alone in a place and their interaction get constantly interrupted by something or someone. Then, they also made sure to have Finn out of the game to let them alone together again for their last scene in the movie. If they made it so in TFA, it is likely that they will make sure that Kylo & Rey get stranded in some part of the island to allow interactions to take place between them because they actually barely shared line in TFA, Kylo speaking alone the most of the time. In the Prequel, Anakin & Padme developed a romance in a romantic place and in the Original Trilogy, Han & Leia developed a romance aboard the Millenium Falcon. Why not having Kylo & Rey develop some romance in both context? So, the configuration of their journey in Episode VIII could be the following:
1. Shared time on Achch-To
2. Escape from Achch-To with the Millenium Falcon
3. Arrival on some unknown planet where all other characters have converged so that the stories reunite in one single story

This implies that:
1. Kylo & the Knights of Ren should show-up on Achch-To quite early in the movie. I think this makes sense because actually I don't think that Luke & Rey intend to stay very long on Achch-To, at least Rey. A lot has been said about Rey going to train with Luke but is it really the goal of her journey anyway? I am not sure that becoming a Jedi is one of her motivations when she arrives and she's primarily there to find Luke for Leia. What's more, Leia wants to find her brother to bring him back so to convince him to return from exile and obviously as soon as possible because he is needed. R2 and Chewbacca stayed next to the Falcon at the end of TFA, which implies that the original idea was rather to leave Achch-To quite soon. So actually, would Luke really become Rey's teacher and have time to train her before Kylo shows up?
2. Given the limited number of set days and the limited number of characters on the island, it is obvious that the final part of the film won't take place on Achch-To unless Kylo would show up actually at the end of the movie, which would be quite weird. So if the Millenium Falcon is supposed to leave the island at some point, I can hardly imagine that Kylo & Rey would then fly alongside Luke, R2 and Chewie for the reasons that I wrote previously. I suppose that Luke certainly has a ship on his own - unless we learn that he was actually forced into exile - so he could leave the island at least with R2. As I hardly believe Chewie to fly alongside Kylo & Rey, I wouldn't be surprised if he would die on the island since he was Han's long-time pal (you can actually hardly think about Chewie without thinking about Han), i.e. by protecting Ben and/or Rey from some menace.

Nah, I think that puffins are going to be great for Rey and Kylo scenes cause they can lighten up the mood which would be unexpected for most of the audience. We had enough intensity and danger and hostility so since their relationship is going to be "very interesting moving froward" it can't be just angst and brooding. There have to be some lighter moments. If he's going to start turning towards light than lightening up is going to make it easier to swallow than going from evil brooding to tortured brooding to hero brooding. Not to mention that Kylo is an entertaining character with perfect comic timing so that's that. Also, Carrie said something like AD was jealous that he didn't get to do any comedy or something along those lines, when he said ESB would be dark. So you just know that he's actually given some funny scenes.

Yeah, the puffin thing has the potential to be interesting in a lot of ways.

First, like @vaderito says above, Adam Driver is outstanding at comedy, especially the dry comedy that would be needed for Kylo.  In fact, TFA already opened this door with "A droid stole a freighter" and "Anything else?"  I think JJ said something like he would love AD forever or something, lol, after the delivery of that "Anything else?" line.  Also, to this day my husband and I still joke with each other with that deadpan "A droid stole a freighter."

But beyond that, the puffins could provide the opportunity to show Kylo's humanity to Rey and the audience in general.  Imagine a scene where he is talking to Rey and/or Luke, perhaps pretty snarkily, while at the same time he is mindlessly throwing food to the puffins and/or petting them.  I don't know if anyone has ever seen How to Train Your Dragon, but I am reminded of that scene where Hiccup is sitting on the beach with Toothless and he throws a Terrible Terror (a little dragon) a fish and the dragon comes up to Hiccup and curls up next to him like a dog.  That kind of thing was a big deal moment in HTTYD because of the plot about proving dragons weren't bad, but they could do it more subtle here where some puffin that Kylo has been feeding ends up coming up and sitting on Kylo's lap, and Kylo mindlessly starts to pet him, not bothered at all.  IOW, Kylo is not only comfortable with the puffins, but they are comfortable with him, so comfortable that he doesn't think for a second that he's petting a puffin while having some existential moment with Rey and/or Luke ... but Rey and the audience with notice it, which will be a surprise for her and many, since she might think he'd slice them all up without a thought.

They could also go the "animal whisperer" route with him, as there is precedent for it with Ezra in Rebels. IMO that's a trickier scenario because it could get "too on the nose" or it could turn into just another "checkbox" Force skill.  But it could be handled well and to similar effect to the "petting puffins" thing if and when Kylo and Rey confront some kind of animal, and she's ready to take it on, he chooses to soothe it instead.  That could also provide an interesting opportunity for "where do your dark side traits lie".  If Rey goes into "full-Jakku" with the animals and he opts to soothe them, it would nicely muddy the waters of the default premise that "she is light and he is dark."  After seeing RO, I really, really think that they might do some of that.

I would really prefer to see the puffins role in some sort of Dagobah mood. Definitely not the Ewok-like action.

Yoda, how important for the plot he could be - he is still a creature that kids like very much. You don't need cute space bears to meet the expectation of the targeted audience. Yoda - level of cuteness would hit the target.

I have a question:

What is this space chicken that is getting mentioned every now and then?

Is it that fleshy lump (I think it could be Unkar Plutt) seen in some of the long shots of the filming in Ireland?

SoloSideCousin wrote:Yeah, the puffin thing has the potential to be interesting in a lot of ways.

First, like @vaderito says above, Adam Driver is outstanding at comedy, especially the dry comedy that would be needed for Kylo.  In fact, TFA already opened this door with "A droid stole a freighter" and "Anything else?"  I think JJ said something like he would love AD forever or something, lol, after the delivery of that "Anything else?" line.  Also, to this day my husband and I still joke with each other with that deadpan "A droid stole a freighter."

But beyond that, the puffins could provide the opportunity to show Kylo's humanity to Rey and the audience in general.  Imagine a scene where he is talking to Rey and/or Luke, perhaps pretty snarkily, while at the same time he is mindlessly throwing food to the puffins and/or petting them.  I don't know if anyone has ever seen How to Train Your Dragon, but I am reminded of that scene where Hiccup is sitting on the beach with Toothless and he throws a Terrible Terror (a little dragon) a fish and the dragon comes up to Hiccup and curls up next to him like a dog.  That kind of thing was a big deal moment in HTTYD because of the plot about proving dragons weren't bad, but they could do it more subtle here where some puffin that Kylo has been feeding ends up coming up and sitting on Kylo's lap, and Kylo mindlessly starts to pet him, not bothered at all.  IOW, Kylo is not only comfortable with the puffins, but they are comfortable with him, so comfortable that he doesn't think for a second that he's petting a puffin while having some existential moment with Rey and/or Luke ... but Rey and the audience with notice it, which will be a surprise for her and many, since she might think he'd slice them all up without a thought.

They could also go the "animal whisperer" route with him, as there is precedent for it with Ezra in Rebels. IMO that's a trickier scenario because it could get "too on the nose" or it could turn into just another "checkbox" Force skill.  But it could be handled well and to similar effect to the "petting puffins" thing if and when Kylo and Rey confront some kind of animal, and she's ready to take it on, he chooses to soothe it instead.  That could also provide an interesting opportunity for "where do your dark side traits lie".  If Rey goes into "full-Jakku" with the animals and he opts to soothe them, it would nicely muddy the waters of the default premise that "she is light and he is dark."  After seeing RO, I really, really think that they might do some of that.

@SoloSideCousin

I was firmly with @reylo1992 before I read this post. I was thinking thw fluffiness of it all would be extremely out of place on Ach-To, but now I see differently how it could all go. Thank you for this!!!

Count me as still skeptical. Or at least puffins that would get along with the prince of the Darkside aren't going to be cutesy, more like this guy:

@solosidecousin And seeing as how his parents are sarcastically hilarious, it'd be interesting to see how much of that humor is in him! lol

rey09 wrote:@solosidecousin And seeing as how his parents are sarcastically hilarious, it'd be interesting to see how much of that humor is in him! lol

@rey09

I was shocked that they had him play any humor at all in TFA, so I do think as Kylo/Ben lightens a lot more of Han-Leia snark is going to come out.

@IoJovi, I didn't mention it in the post above, but AD's acting with Sample (the baby niece) on Girls gives me a ton of confidence that AD would be able to handle any kind of animal/kid thing in a smart, non-sappy, non-cheesy way.  On Girls you know that Adam Sackler cares deeply for Sample, but he is never corny or sentimental about it.  It's all very pragmatic and real and funny in a deadpan sort of way.  I imagine something similar for coming across if Kylo were to have to deal with small creatures in a sympathetic manner.

@"Darth Awakened", I don't want any Ewokization either.  I liked them as an 8 year old, but considering what could have been done with ROTJ, (thanks for @CienaRee and @snufkin for information about Kasdan's wishes) now I feel as they were the harbinger of the "kiddie turn" that we saw with Jar Jar and TPM, so definitely not a favorite of mine, especially since I am a fan of darker, more adult SW, like we got with Kylo's story in TFA and like we got in RO.  In fact, if the creatures were ugly and nastyish and looked like they were as ready to bite you and lick you would actually work better for the "humanizing Kylo" moment, because it would show him being accepting in a way his "can I get this walking carpet out of my way" mother was not and certainly his Tusken-slaughtering grandfather was not. Also, it would make him less "humans only"/imperialish.  Actually, come to think of it, Han was pretty pragmatic and accepting of all comers.  This could also be spun in a way that makes him look more like his father.  But it is definitely all about how it is done ... but this Wired article that somebody posted on the forum gives me hope that they won't make another Ewok mistake.

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/tastemakers-kathleen-kennedy-star-wars

Err... sorry but humanising Kylo with fluffy animals sounds like a frakkin awful idea to me. People who hate him for murdering Han aren't going to be converted because he's nice to cute widdle puffins.

Also, while Kylo does have some humour in TFA, it’s pretty much confined to the part of the movie where he’s still presented as a stereotypical villain and they haven’t revealed his heritage yet.